Transcript
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Hello and welcome to Teenagers Untangled, the audio hug where we use research by experts and our own experience to discuss everything and anything to do with parenting teenagers. I'm Rachel Richards, mother of two teens and two bonus daughters.
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Hi, there, I'm Susie Asli, mindfulness coach, mindful therapist, musician, and mother of three teenagers, two of them are twins.
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Today, we're going to try and help a listener whose son seems completely obsessed with Snapchat. We talked about generally managing screen time in a previous episode, I'll put the link in the podcast notes. But that was a while ago, and we didn't go specifically into any single app. So Susie, did you know that there are a number of lawsuits being brought in America against social media companies alleging harm being done? No, I didn't know that. I've just finished a book called Stolen Focus, and I can't recommend that enough.
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Because Johann Hari, who wrote it unpacks all the ways in which our ability to focus properly is being eroded by modern living - much of it these apps,
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I've got that book I have, yes,
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great. I've underlined lots and lots of pages. Anyway, before we begin, let's start with something really positive. And that's an incredibly moving review that we received Susie?
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Yeah, it's really beautiful. 'You have changed our world, and you will never really know how indebted we are to you.' I've got goosebumps.
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'Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, my wife. And I just wish we had discovered your podcasts a year ago, we've both listened, absorbed and changed the way we parent off the back of such amazing insight of how our children see the world. Our home is now a calmer, more interactive and wholesome environment and it's all down to you. Wow, we have finally realized that we have been the blockage to the communication with our girls and have changed.
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We now have so much happier girls who feel able to relax in the home environment. I'm not great with words,' I don't know about that. 'But you've changed our world. And you will never really know how indebted we are to you. I've tried to listen to many podcasts in the past, but yours has struck a chord and is so relevant and relatable.
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Thanks. And we look forward to more insightful help in our lives.' Wow. Thank you so much.
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I'm so moved by that honestly. That's yeah, pause for a lump in the throat.
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And actually, I think one of the reasons it's relatable is we struggle too, and we're not experts. So I think we're all learning and I'm learning constantly from doing this. So you know, we're kind of a club rather than Yeah, absolutely.
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Now, on that note, onto the special golden nuggets of what we learned this week Susie?
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Well, mine is a bit of a repeat. But I think a repeat is good.
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I think we have to repeat all the time when parenting teenagers!
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And it's the phrase that just kind of changed the way I do a lot of things and it was it is 'I get to' rather than'I have to' Yes. And as a single parent, that's I've used that a lot. And at the moment, there seems to be a lot. My kids are kind of breaking up for the summer, there's loads of stuff going on, and it's loads of lifts. And I didn't I just lots and lots of things. And some of them are really lovely and fun.
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And some of they're a bit of a pain in the neck. But if I go,'I get to,' then it's reframed it in my head, and it just works. It's amazing. I get to do this, I get to take you so and so because then I can talk to you in the car. I get to do this. I get
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to see the M 25 car park yet again.
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Yeah, that one doesn't work.
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But there are cows grazing in fields. You get to look at the cows, as you're sitting on the car park.
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I think it's a brilliant one. And I've been
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I get to listen to podcasts. I do that exactly.
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Yeah. So it's, it's a massive game changer for me. And I repeat it daily at the moment.
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using it too .Well with me with me. My kids are broken up from school, and I talk often to them about how being on their phones makes them feel and what they've achieved in their day. You know, what do you remember from that half an hour you spent on your phone? And I got a fair amount of pushback at the beginning.
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But even my daughter who was resistant has become much more aware of how the apps that she's been using are sucking her time.
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And they they kind of leave her feeling empty. And I think the thing that switched for me because I used to try and control it and say you know you're on your phone too much.
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And instead by asking her how she's feeling and how happy she is with the amount of things she'd done that day, I sort of looked at it from her side and she become much became much more comfortable talking about it.
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And I was shocked yesterday - no the day before yesterday - She said Mommy, can you please limit my time on my phone to an hour a day? Because I know that That's all I need. And I can check in at various times, and then I won't lose contact with my friends. So I thought, wow. And she read a book in two days. And you don't often get time to do things like that. And I just thought, gosh, that's, that's time that she's now planned for herself. And I'm really impressed that she's starting to get that. But it's all to do with her making that choice herself. And we talk about this a lot. We have to find the why in them. Yeah, they need to know why they want to do something, otherwise it doesn't work.
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And then the awareness to do it and the discipline to follow through.
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Yes. So she says she feels more energized and everything. Yeah. So anyway, Back to Snapchat, because this is the big thing that we're going to talk about today. You know, there are so many issues we can talk about, generally.
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But let's let's focus on this.
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It's a multimedia social networking app that teenagers can use on their smartphones. I remember being horrified when I discovered my bonus daughters were using it way back when they're now 28 And nearly 26.
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The Disappearing messages seems particularly worrying to me.
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Yes. And sinister. Remember when it came out? Yes. And I just thought that is awful. It's evolved since then, and morphed.
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And to be honest, I don't really look at it much. But my daughter just went through it with me.
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And it just looks like everything else. It looks now it looks like TikTock. It looks like Instagram. They're all copying from each other. Yeah,
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they use it to chat, don't they?
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that's absolutely the the main thing.
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And Snapchat users can also edit pictures and videos and filters share their media publicly. So it's doing all those other things now, as well as being a messaging forum. And if I asked my teens, they say nobody over school age has it. They said, that would be weird. And I don't know if that's the case everywhere else. So North America makes up 92 million of snapchats daily users. This is the most recent data I got followed by Europe with 78 million. And it's likely to remain the social app for generation said, for at least the next few years, if you know there are up and coming apps, but between 2014 and 2022, teenagers aged 13 to 17, sharply increased their Snapchat usage from 41 to 59%. And that beat Instagram's 10% growth. So this is still a real growth app.
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But and it's also one that they seem to be on for a long time. Yes. Because they're chatting on Yes,
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that's absolutely right. My daughter says TikTock is more addictive.
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And I think that's because they've done some incredible stuff with algorithms. I've listened to a podcast with the man who set it up talking about what he'd done that they came at it differently. But with the Snapchat, yes, it's very much about the messaging and relationships. And there's some really positive things. And let's start with that there are positive things in terms of their relationship, their ability to connect. Yeah, it's
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fun, isn't it?
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Exactly. Have a lot of fun, but it's a bit obsessive.
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But the legal cases I mentioned to you, platform owners meta platform, so that's Instagram, Facebook, bite dance, which I didn't even know about Google and Snap are fighting almost 200 lawsuits filed in the US on behalf of adolescents and young adults, and at least two dozen complaints by public school districts blaming the companies for health issues, including anxiety, depression, eating disorders and sleeplessness.
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Now, I'm bringing this up, because what I want to do is I want to normalize the problem that this poor lady's got, Johann Hari talks about it in Stolen Focus where he says, The truth is we're living in an environment that makes it very hard to manage this. The companies want us to think it's a personal failing. They want to blame us for our inability to switch off these apps, but it's not the case. So I want to go into this because I want people to understand what's going on. I mean, you can listen to my other podcast, but this is this is slightly different. So here's the gist of the argument in I went into one of the cases and the summary. 'American children are suffering an unprecedented mental health crisis fueled by defendants addictive and dangerous social media products.
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They cite the defendants studied efforts to induce young people to compulsively use their products, Instagram, Facebook, tik, Tok, Snapchat and YouTube, borrowing heavily from the behavioral and neurobiological techniques used by slot machines'. So Natasha, Devon talked about this in the interview I had with her. It's like pulling the arm of a one-armed bandit, when you pull down on the screen, it updates Yes. Okay, that's the slot machine thing. Yeah. And exploited by the cigarette industry. Defendants deliberately embedded in their products an array of design features aimed at maximizing youth engagement to drive advertising revenue. Defendants know children are in a developmental stage that leaves them particularly vulnerable to the addiction. To the effects of these features, defendants target them anyway, in pursuit of additional profit. So Snapchat in response says it's been wrongly dragged into the social media addiction suits.
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They say it's got an ephemoral messaging service, which makes it fundamentally different from other platforms. Because they say, Look, we're not doing the same thing. I beg to differ.
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They say, unlike these other platforms, Snapchat is primarily used for direct communication between people who already know each other in real life. Now, I read this to my daughter, and she actually gasped and said,'Oh, it's one of the most addictive. She said, she thinks TikTock is slightly more addictive, but she said, it's really hard to be off Snapchat.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I've seen it. And with my kids, they, especially the younger two, they are on it all the time.
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Yeah. Now Spiegeloog, which is the magazine of the Psychology Department of the University of Amsterdam has a great piece on this. And they say social media platforms such as Snapchat employ techniques known as Dark patterns to influence user behavior. Now, what's a dark pattern, it pushes the user into doing something that they would not normally do by playing on psychological vulnerabilities, but you're not conscious of it?
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Right? So what? Like buying something you would not normally buy? In the absence of that dark pattern or spending more time than intended on a specific platform? And then there's Forced Action dark pattern, which it's it makes people do certain actions that they just wouldn't do in order to maintain some functionality, like a social pyramid where users have to recruit other friends to get benefits. Privacy, Zuckerberg, which is where users are forced to share more information than they would intend to otherwise.
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And then gamification, which is the clear one that Snapchat uses, where what they do is it's the repetitive actions to achieve a certain feature of the platform that's important. So in terms of Snapping, what you have to do is you have to take a photo of yourself, and send it to your friend. And these are your streaks, your snap streaks.
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So these are arguably a form of gamification. And it's really interesting how they work because your snap streak with a friend appears next to their name, or an image. And it's usually got a colorful emoji.
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And it assigns a score to the relationship. So people feel stressed about their score. And if they break it, they feel bad because they're the person between friends who broke it.
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And I didn't even know this, but my daughter showed me that you can actually pay to get back a streak, and then the price goes up, depending how long the streak was.
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I've heard of that.
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I thought it was a fraud. Yes.
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And my daughter, every now and then does streaks and then she comes off. And then it offers her to pay some money to get it back.
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And she's like, I don't care.
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They look like they're fun at first glance, but that's quite sinister. Because again, that's trying to get money out of them to keep their social kudos. And it encourages them to open up their app every day, because they're scared that they're going to lose the streaks. Yeah.
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I mean, Duolingo does this.
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Yeah, I mean mine use it as their primary form of communication with their mates.
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That's how they text each other.
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That's how we find one of my kids. Like if he's off at friends houses, I get his twin to go right. Can you find him on SNAP maps?
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Yes. Now will come on to that, because that's I'm so going to look at their snaps scores! interesting. Now, just staying on this score that comes from the snapping and the streaks. It also assigns a score depending on how much you use the app. And it makes you look much more socially connected. So my daughter's have said, Oh, such and such is really socially connected, look at her snap score. So I asked one of my daughters, what's your snap score? She said 65,239. So I said, Show me another one. That was somebody who's got a high snap score, and she said 812,252 What does that even mean? I don't know what that means. But the comparison is 65,000 versus 812,000. So this person is clearly on Snap a lot more than my daughter who is on SNAP. So you can tell how much your kids on Snap, It's not really occurred to me to look that deeply into it. And maybe that's bad parenting, I don't know. So yes, and adolescents in this report noted that this was an essential feature which motivated them to continue using the app. And some participants said it's stressful. And they feel obligated. It increases levels of anxiety. And the reason it's a bit like gambling, is the logic goes that once you've got so many streaks with someone, you don't want to stop, because then you lose all those streaks.
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Yeah. Which is a gambling technique. You know, once you've actually invested so much money, then you kind of feel like going because you've lost so much, or you've you've put so much into it.
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Yes, it's quite a loss, if they break a long one.
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I don't think mine are doing it anymore. I'm not sure.
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Well, it depends on whether you're hooking into that. Yeah, you know, so with Duolingo if I don't keep my streaks up, they ask me if I want to pay money and I say no. And then they start nagging me and sending me messages going, Are you sure?
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The fact that individual user scores are visible to us as friends is a problem because - whilst Snap is saying we're not doing the same thing as Instagram and Facebook, because we're not showing the likes and we don't have a regular feed of what they've done over the years- they're still doing something like this, because you can see other people's scores, and they're still vital to that pressure. And it's social comparison that's incited by that. And many studies have shown that so called social comparison can have a negative impact on wellbeing,
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especially for teenagers, because teenagers vulnerable, feels like
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life and death.
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Tech for Good, which is an organization that's trying to figure this stuff out proposed Snapchat could remove the feature of streaks completely. I mean, that would help.
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Yes. So we don't want to do fuel that.
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or streaks could be less visually prominent, they could hide them and you'd have to actually go into. They didn't do that one, either. Birthdays, if it's your birthday, you need lots of people mentioning you on Snapchat, because it shows that you're special to lots of people. And also you need to put something up a message up otherwise you don't seem connected to them. So lots and lots of lots of lots of lots of pressure.
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So if you don't have that, then you feel like you're a total loser with no mates.
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Yeah.
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And it's really interesting, because, again, Johann Hari in this book says, look, these apps could do these really powerful things that are positive, for example, Facebook, they could put a button, it would take one day of programming a button on the front page saying, I'd love to meet up with my friends who's around. Yeah. And then what would happen is all these people could meet up and they could have a lovely time interacting socially. They won't do that, because they want to keep you on the app, because then they can show those figures to advertisers and say, look at how many eyeballs are on my app.
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Or they could do so much all of the tech could do so much for us not to choose not to. It's a business. It's horrible. It's heartbreaking.
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So Snap maps that you mentioned. Do you remember what we said about it in our parties episode?
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What's the problem with snap? Oh, yeah, totally.
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Totally.
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So snap maps, you can trace people, I was contacted by a mother who said to me, I have found out that my daughter is being tracked by another mother, who has her on her snap maps. Okay. Does this seem strange to you? And I said, Yeah, that's wrong. And she said, you know, what can I do?
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And I said, Well, you message her and say, Would you please remove my daughter from your maps, and why are you tracking her? And it may be that she just, I don't know, I don't know why but it may be totally innocent.
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And then she just wants to check when there's availability for her own daughter. But yeah, it's weird.
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Also, if you haven't listened to the party episode, the problem is that people so you can see on SNAP maps, if people are getting together. So if you've got a child who's feeling a bit left out, they can see on SNAP maps, that all their mates are together at a party, or they've all met up in London and your child hasn't been invited. But it's worse than that, because it's immediate, you can see exactly where they are. And often they will make sure their location's on so they can show that they were at a party, but also, that location. If people turn up at your house for a party or a gathering, you need to make sure they switched off their maps, because otherwise other people can see that and then turn up at your party unwanted. So there were all sorts of issues with that.
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You have to be really careful with that one.
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Yeah, it's handy. Sometimes when we don't know it's very hard.
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Yeah. Well, you see, I use live 360 for that, and you can create groups and then But I created a group with some friends when we were at a festival. And then I realized I didn't know how to come out of the group and I was still tracking someone's, you know, 11 year old daughter. Why am I getting notifications about her?
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So that's like you said, sometimes these things happen and then you don't know how to reverse out because you're not aware of the technology. So they have their problems.
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Disappearing photos. This is one of the big ones. Yeah, photos, messages, drugs. Sexting. So let's stick with the drugs for a second. There's been 150% rise in unintended drug overdose deaths amongst 15 to 19 year old Americans between 2018 and 2021.
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Jamie Peralta whose son died in 2020 has joined a group of 26 families who are suing Snapchat in a case. And the lawsuit alleges that numerous special features on Snapchat such as disappearing messages and my eyes only, which is a hidden data vault that requires a pin number to access, have made it the preferred choice for drug dealers. I mean, I did not know this at all. And Jamie Peralta claims that almost all bereaved parents that he speaks to tell him that their child bought the pill off a drug dealer on Snapchat. Now Snapchat alleges the plaintiffs have mischaracterized how the platform works. So they are defending their position.
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They kind of have to and they also don't like it's horrible, isn't it? Like as soon as you're aware that something sinister is going on with the product you have, surely you change it?
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But that's what all of these companies are being told. There's a chap called Tristan, who was the person who was in Social Dilemma. I don't know which people watch that video documentary about the way that things are being manipulated. And he blew the whistle, and said, I didn't really like it. I don't want to be a part of the world that's been created by this. And lots of people went yeah, I completely agree. And then nothing happened. It's very scary, really terrifying. So there's that. And then there's the photos, the sexual photos.
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This is the preferred app for sexting, yes, sending sexual pictures.
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And if you take a screenshot, then it can, it notifies us.
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Yes, But I mentioned this in an episode, many moons ago, where I was with my daughter, a boy had sent her a photo, it wasn't wasn't sexual, it was just his torso, very nice torso. But she laughed and showed it to me. And I snapped it immediately with my phone. And she said, Oh wait, you can't do that. And I said, but I just did. And she said, but you can't. And I said, I'm not going to keep the photo. But I want you to understand that that's how it works. So it doesn't even need to be the person who you sent the photo to who betrayed you. It can be anyone. And I checked, because you know, I'm all over this porn stuff that I want to understand is going on. I just looked in Pornhub sexting photos, there are entire areas for this stuff.
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So people, if your kids are sending these photos, you don't know whether they're being uploaded. Pornhub is like the YouTube of the porn industry. My goodness. And there are ways you can get the photos removed I did have an app sexing episode. But it's very, very worrying and can be very emotionally and mentally damaging. And I mentioned this also, because anyone who sees our Instagram accounts has seen that my daughter's school sent us an email about how people are targeting young people to try and get photos out of them. They start by complimenting them, then they get a photo and then they blackmail them. And it's online criminal exploitation.
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But it can lead to suicide because these kids feel like their life is being destroyed.
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And it's not just girls. So understand. If you have a boy, this conversation needs to be also inclusive, because people target boys as well. So people can screenshot the image, they can use third party services like screen recorders to actually record any photos videos that are sent. It just shows that nothing's really private or safe online. And I've said it many times, to my kids, if you get to the point where you're having a relationship and you want to send a photo or video or something, make sure that you are not identifiable in it. Do not have your face, do not have your room. Anything that can be identified so that you can then say, that's not me.
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If anything comes out, that's the only way you can make them safe in this regard. Tell them not to do it. But so these are the problems with Snapchat, don't panic if your child's got Snapchat, but I think we need to understand so that we can then talk to our kids and say here are the issues. And here's what I need you to be aware of and to look out for.
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So signs they are addicted to Snapchat. So this lady she's got this son and she says he's just he's just on it all the time, and I don't know how to deal with it. So if it's part of your morning routine to check Snapchat stories, like literally the first thing you're doing, and some people, they haven't actually got out of bed, but they snapped a selfie.
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Yeah, I think probably lots of teenagers do that. Yeah.
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Your Snapchat story is more than 120 seconds long. I didn't understand this.
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But this this is from Pan Spy, which is one of the many ways that you can use as a parent to monitor what your your child's doing. You spent so long binging on every one's snaps that by the end of the day, you're convinced you've been out and about when you haven't even left your bed.
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Yeah, so you can feel like you've socialized. And you can see what everybody's doing. And have seen not a single soul.
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Also, if you have to Snapchat everywhere you go. You put everything you're doing on Snapchat, or you feel like you know, all the celebrities you follow? Yeah.
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Right. But like you say until you ask them well, how is that making you feel? They're probably fine with it.
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They're probably not aware.
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It's cumulative as well, like they they start and they do a little bit and then a little bit more, a little bit more, and then they get desensitized. So it's, it's yeah, it's tricky.
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And I think what what's happened with COVID is that the world has shifted, we have a lot of teenagers who've grown up in their rooms online, the amount of online use ocketed during COVID, obviously, because we were all just going nuts. Some people had great time. But for most of us, it wasn't great. And they were schooling at home. And so what's normal for them is probably not what we would have considered normal as teens. And when I did a talk recently, I said to all the adults, would you have rather had been a teenager when you were a teenager or a teenager now. And every single one said, when I was a teenager, and when I asked why they said because of the freedom, where I could meet my friends and go and do all these amazing things. And there was no social media. Now we're stuck in this awful situation where we kind of have to encompass it, but find ways to control it. Strategies for breaking an addiction to Snapchat. Parental Control apps.
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I'm not a fan, because I think that it's so much better to engage with your teen and show them.
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Yeah, they'll fight against they'll fight against young kids in my maybe the younger teens - it works for them. But older teenss, yes.
00:27:26.420 --> 00:27:31.460
Mine would just, hack their way through.
00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:33.470
Yes, exactly.
00:27:37.339 --> 00:27:40.940
Yeah, yeah. Got the controls on? They're just gonna go around.
00:27:41.509 --> 00:28:05.390
And then if you find out what do you do? I mean, I think that I think it's really important if you're checking in really regularly, like, even every day, if necessary, and talking to them about it because they need to find ways to control their use. I saw one mom who said, I just let my kids be on it all summer. When they get back to school, they'll come off it. I don't agree with that, either.
00:28:07.309 --> 00:28:11.900
It's personnel management as well, isn't it? I mean, I'm sitting here thinking all my kids are on it too much.
00:28:11.900 --> 00:28:27.650
They they're going to be going to their dads. And when they get back, we'll have to workout something one of them particularly anyway. And it also depends on who they are, what else they're doing. You know, there's lots of variables in it.
00:28:27.650 --> 00:28:51.319
It's an app. But I personally think banning things and putting lots of rules in place around it can be helpful, but it can also cause real problems. Yeah, power and control and arguments and disconnect eventually, because they don't feel trusted. They do I think your approach of how does this make you feel? What are you getting out of it? And sowing those seeds of making them more thoughtful around it is the way out?
00:28:51.359 --> 00:29:52.589
Yeah, absolutely. And then turning off notifications, because all of these apps like to notify you to tell you that you haven't been on their platform. Help them go offline if they can. I was amazed when my daughter told me she wanted to limit her time to an hour a day, and she just learned from that. And also, because I've told her how it works, I said to her, there's a snap of cortisol about 15 minutes after you're offline if you're used to being online too much. And the other night, she said 'I'm feeling that cortisol rush, because she left her phone upstairs. So she noticed it because she knew that that's one of the techniques that are being used or how they're being manipulated, the better for them being able to kind of step away from it. Getting them to read before bed, you know reading is important and it's a dying art.
00:29:52.589 --> 00:30:11.069
It doesn't matter what they're reading, it really doesn't matter. I read before bed and I find it's incredible. It really good way of de-compressing, stretching, anything physically removing the phone as well, you know, keeping it downstairs, everyone charging at the same time, things like that can really help them disengage.
00:30:11.099 --> 00:30:25.529
Yeah, it's important to get it out of their rooms, if you can. My daughter actually - I know that she's turns it off, but I think I am now thinking it'd be better to have it out of room. I know she's not looking at it. Whereas one of my other kids, it has to be out of his room, or he finds it too tempting.
00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:30.000
And I think I think that I would be too tempted,
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:36.720
and it's not worth it. It's a relief when it's not there. It can't be used.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:40.529
Yes, exactly.
00:30:36.720 --> 00:31:04.289
So it's got to be out of the room downstairs, everything on charge, and then you can all just go. Phew, And it's space, and they can feel safe. And they're not having to think about stuff. And you can warn them ahead of time. So if they know that every night, it happens at this time, then they can do their quick, you know, I've got to snap everybody or whatever, beforehand, but then you can also say so, you know, that whole snap flurry. Why is that so important? Talk to me about it.
00:31:04.589 --> 00:31:05.490
Okay, yes.
00:31:05.000 --> 00:31:41.089
You know, they're manipulating you? They just want us online either to sell us stuff, or to sell our eyeballs to advertisers, and get our data. So one other thing that Johann Hari mentioned, before we finish this, he said that each one of these apps starts off with a kind of generic voodoo doll of you. And every single time you click on something, or you stay on something, it fills in the gaps about who are you. So okay, she's a girl. Okay, what kind of girl is she? What does she like?
00:31:38.900 --> 00:31:48.049
And they get more and more information so they can push more and more detailed, specific things to you. That will turbocharge your interests.
00:31:48.829 --> 00:31:49.670
That's how it works.
00:31:49.789 --> 00:31:50.480
Lovely.
00:31:51.920 --> 00:31:56.390
Now you can have a lovely holiday.
00:31:57.769 --> 00:31:58.910
We've terrified everybody
00:32:01.759 --> 00:32:06.920
The best thing to do is to get them socializing, doing other things.
00:32:03.259 --> 00:32:16.640
going cold turkey can be painful, remember that cortisol spike, but let them know that that's what's happening. Give them a sense of empowerment. So that's it for this season.
00:32:17.150 --> 00:32:18.589
Yes, Teenagers Untangled
00:32:18.589 --> 00:32:20.990
needs to take a little break, having a summer holiday
00:32:22.220 --> 00:32:46.279
and actually paying attention to my teenagers. In the meantime, we do have a long back catalogue of other episodes. If you want to go over any of those. I'll still be on Instagram sort of checking in to see if there are any messages on my websites if you want to email. Susie's around, she hasn't dropped off the planet. She's just not doing the podcasts over the holidays. So she'll be around for some of them.
00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:50.710
I'm also not going to be around for all of it, which is deliberate.
00:32:51.609 --> 00:33:15.670
So, if you've enjoyed this episode, then why not help other parents tell your friends tell the school subscribe to the podcast. leave a review. You can also sign up to receive all the latest at our website where there's blog reviews, links to every episode www.teenagersuntangled.com easy ways to contact us and Susie's contact is having
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:21.849
a website which is www.amindful-life.co.uk
00:33:28.029 --> 00:33:28.809
Thank you for listening.
00:33:28.960 --> 00:33:31.119
Thank you have a great summer. Bye for now. Bye for now.
