Transcript
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Hello, I'm Rachel Richards, and welcome to Teenagers Untangled where we combine research by experts and ideas from other parents to solve your problems. As a parenting coach, I saw the incredible power of getting people together to share ideas and support each other. So, welcome, pull up a chair. And let's begin.
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Coming up in this podcast we discuss Emma's question. My 14 year old is very musical, but wants to stop playing the piano now she's great four what should I do? To discuss this I'm joined by Susie Asli, mindfulness coach, viola player, and mom to three teenagers. Hi, Susie. Hi, Rachel. But first, we just want to thank all of our listeners, we've already had over 500 downloads since we started in mid December, and hello to all our American, Australian and South African listeners. Now academic motivation, do you have a child who doesn't seem motivated in their schoolwork?
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Are they not very academic? Or is it that they're lacklustre in their approach? How do you deal with it? Susie, I have to say that I loved researching this topic, the key books that I used are in the podcast write-up, and it seemed to strike a chord with lots of parents. So what's in our inbox?
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Yeah, it's a really fascinating topic we have from Tracy, 'There is so much pressure to do well, academically, now, in the core subjects that we risk churning out carbon copy children, all with the same ologies. Yet in life, it's the creative abilities that are most revered actors, artists, musicians.
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Another listener said that she's seen many parents over the years pay for tutoring to improve the child's grades, and complain to schools about their child not getting into a sports team, when she thinks they just need to accept that their child isn't brilliant at those things.
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Great points.
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And then with Owen, he says, We live in an interesting world when it comes to education. We admire entrepreneurs and groundbreakers. But free thinking is discouraged in our education system, or at least it seems to have no place. Do you embrace their ability to think outside the box? Or do you coerce them to do something they can see no point in? And that's a very interesting start for our discussion, don't you think?
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Because whether our children see any point in something is going to make a difference, right?
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Susie, what is your experience with academic motivation?
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I have three children who are very different in academic ability and academic motivation, and in their whole approach to school, to be honest. So my eldest is very science based, finds the sciences and sort of that sort of side of things really easy.
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And then my other two children they have well, my one of my children is really not into science, she finds that incredibly difficult. And she wouldn't mind me saying that.
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It's just not her thing. And we've had many conversations in our family about what society in general, but particularly school, as we're talking about school, really put so much weight on particular types of intelligence, academic intelligence, that's seen as the superior and within that the superior branch of the academic, is science and logical thinking is seen as the sort of pinnacle of of intelligence,
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Which is what Sir Ken Robinson talked about, in that TED talks all those years ago. It's had millions and millions of hits, and he's so right, yes,
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He's fantastic. His TED talk is amazing. Whereas we talk in our family a lot about that there are I think there's seven types of intelligence, and how they are of equal value, they are of equal importance, there isn't one that superior just because it can be measured,
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It's the measuring isn't it? Which is why the schools are going in that direction, because it's easy to measure, then they can check the teacher's doing the job properly. And those things become considered to be more important, because you can measure them,
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You can measure them and they also they lead to maybe more exotic or exciting workplaces, you know, it's just seen seen as more important; you're a better person somehow.
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Whereas empathy, you know, emotional intelligence, the creative intelligence, the physical intelligence, they're just seen as lesser than, so we talked about that, probably my daughter will have way many more job opportunities, because their emotional intelligence is off the charts. Yeah, and that does seem to have sunk in and that does really help. You know, we're looking at whole children, we want our children to be whole people. They're not just walking brains who are getting grades.
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The perspective I would look at it from is being in the workplace, being a manager, having staff, which is a revelation, because what I discovered was that if you try and take a member of staff, and get them doing a job that they don't enjoy, or they're not particularly good at, you are not going to get good results.
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We all know that. And every workplace is going to require a range of skills and somehow forcing people to do things they're not particularly motivated by never works, and yet in the school environment, we are trying to get a base level across all the subjects of children doing well. And the children who have quite spiky profiles, so they're particularly good in one area, or they're not particularly good at another thing, are punished for that.
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Yeah, so maybe a child is not so good in a subject and quite often the focus is on, oh, well, then we'd better get that grade up, we'd better put all our efforts into the one that's not going well.
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Whereas actually, it would be better to go, okay, is a subject or that activity that you enjoy doing, which maybe has nothing to do with school, is what makes your heart sing. Let's put our energy there and run with that and see what happens with that.
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I can hear parents palpitating because - of course you panic because you think, well if I let my child put so much energy into something that isn't valued in the educational system am I letting my child down?
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Yes, that is a huge problem, because a lot of it is based on fear. It's the fear of, okay, I want my child to be a success in life. But what does that even mean? And we kind of tie it into education, grades university that's the way they want to go.
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And that's a very high bar now, because there's so many graduates, Universities are so hard to get into.
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But there are so many kids that fall out of those categories, and they're not going to be doing that. And then they end up feeling just that they're not good enough, which is a terrible place to start your adult life.
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The books that I was looking at were things like The Self-Driven child, the Gift of Failure, thrivers and they were all books, looking at how you make your child make the most of themselves. And overall, the message was that grades limit children sample psychologist Hora Estrace, Morano was saying, the best thing to do is to be setting self determined educational goals, not the one set by the school curriculum. So in other words, what I did with my daughter who isn't highly academic, and has some learning difficulties, I said to her, rather than trying to be good at everything, which you're not going to be able to achieve, and worrying about whether you're going to get this grade or that grade. Why not - when you're in a class situation, think, what do I find interesting here?
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Whatever the subject is, is there something in this that I can find interesting, and then focus on that? Yeah, just make that your thing that you're going to explore, and stop panicking about trying to do everything?
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Yeah, that is brilliant, because it comes back to the whole idea of, actually, children are hungry to learn, and we're talking about teenagers, so they're older, but they're hungry to learn, they want to learn, but quite often, we sort of force it, ram it down their throats very, very early, you know, they start school, before they're ready, most of them, particularly the boys, and they're fed up with it. Whereas if you leave them, that's the whole sort of unschooling or the alternative school system, kids will sit and do nothing. And then they'll be like, Oh, yep, I need to know that. And I want to know that, and then they'll learn it in a flash, because they want to know, when we shove it down their throats, they go after too much, and then they switch off. I love that you get your daughter to pick out bits that she wants to learn. And then that's interesting and, and makes it meaningful for her.
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What a lot of the researchers have found is that stress levels are greatly increased in everybody, when they feel that they don't have control over their lives. So when you come to children who feel that they're being forced to do all these activities and all this work, but they don't have any sense that they have control over what's happening in their lives, the stress levels will be increased dramatically.
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There's a psychologist called Wendy guralnick, who's come up in quite a few articles that I read, as well as her research, and she's an American. And she studied autonomy and looked at both supportive and controlling parents. And she found that children who were controlled by their mothers gave up much faster than those who weren't when faced with frustrating situations. And so her attitude is don't provide the solutions for your teenager until they've had the chance to work things out for themselves. We actually have to be prepared to let them struggle. Yes. And even fail
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Even fail. Where they need to, you know, that can be the best learning concept.
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You don't do well at that? oh, maybe that's okay. Maybe that's not the route they want to go down. But maybe that's the kick up the bum they need to reprioritize or, to work out, well. What do I like doing what is interesting, and how can I get there?
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Yes. And I sat down with my daughter, again, who was finding the whole concept of having to go through years of schooling where it doesn't make her shine. She doesn't feel like a hero in her environment. And she's there every day. I said to her, Well, what do you want to do? And she talked about university and I said, Well, the thing is, the path you're on at the moment is not University which was a massive shock to her because, for some reason everybody's been told nowadays that university is the answer. And I said, it doesn't mean to say you can't do that. But University is for people who really love studying, and who find a subject they absolutely love. So you need to think, are you going to enjoy studying? And if you are going to enjoy studying, you need to find the thing you're going to enjoy, and that's your choice. I don't mind, you know, there are all sorts of training programs, which are fantastic. So why not put them into the mix?
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Yeah, we sort of prioritize the idea that, you know, University is the place to go, if you've been at secondary school, if you're able to go there, and all of that, but things have changed so much. We don't need that many academics
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really don't need them. Or so many debts.
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No, it is so unbelievably expensive. Now, I mean, my son's college had a talk last night actually about it. He's in the lower six, about options after college, which was really interesting. And it's just, you know, university is one option of many. There are apprenticeships, which are really booming. Again, there's this sort of hierarchy within the system which stresses the kids out. And we all know that stress is terrible for everything.
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It's interesting, because the book, the Self-Driven Child was saying that you can help your child come to an informed decision on their own rather than acting like a boss. So you kind of need to think of it as being a consultant, they have the ability to make good decisions.
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And again, all of these psychologists say they've done lots of tests on children of different ages. And they find that overwhelmingly, they will make really good decisions. What they don't know is the information. So actually sitting there with them and saying, coming back to my daughter, I said to her, you know, you don't have to go straight through to university take some time out.
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Mt friend went and worked in a filling station for two years, then thought, actually, I think I need to do some A levels because I'm bored, and ended up at Oxford. Because she had, she just had a different attitude to life and the tutors were fascinated by her. I've spoken to Oxford dons who are absolutely infuriated by the kids who come to them and say how do I get a first? They're coming to the university with the same attitude of how do I get this? One particular don I was talking to said, I turn to my books on the wall, and I say, read the Greats, feel the passion, come up with interesting ideas, this is what we want. But what we're actually teaching our children is it's all about the grades.
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And also the pressure of talking to teenagers of, you know, what do they want to do? You know, who do they want to be? It's really weird.
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It's almost, you know, we see childhood and teenage years as a sort of a some sort of stepping stone to real life. No, childhood and teenage years, is part of life, you know, why don't you just leave them to be in that world, and stop worrying about what they're going to do, or what they want to be, if we can teach our children to be happy with who they are, and to be healthy and have good mental health and be comfortable and know what they like, know what makes them light up, they will find what they want to do.
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And that's abvery interesting point, because another technique that I read about was helping your child find what it is that they're passionate about. What you need to do as a parent is look at your child and see what is it that they do, and keep going at, when it becomes difficult. So if you see them doing things, and they just give up as soon as it's tricky, that's probably not their thing.
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But if they are somebody, for example, in a kitchen, and they will keep going to keep trying to make the thing until it's perfect, okay, that's something that gives them joy. So then, you know that this is one of their core loves and you can encourage it by saying, Gosh, I noticed that you really enjoy doing that, and reflect back to them and let the child get to the point where they say, actually, that's the thing for me. It's not because they're good at it. It's because they will persevere when it's difficult.
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And if they don't have a thing, that's also fine, you know, they'll find something they will, at some point, if they know who they are, and if they feel good about themselves.
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The problem is when they don't feel good about themselves, and they have this feeling that you know, because school I think is designed for the good girl who works hard and gets good grades.
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I mean, I was quite like that at school. I got good grades, I found school, okay, and I did well, so for me, it was kind of fun to get good grades, but they're not designed for everybody. So a lot of people come out of school with a feeling that they don't know what they want to do, because everyone's been asking them since the age of 11, what do you want to do? What do you want to do? They've no idea. They just want to leave. And a feeling of actually, you know, the comparison itis thing that they're not really good enough.
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So coming back to one of the comments, Tracy said, if you've got any tips on how do I motivate my child to revise for their GCSE? I'm all ears. And it is tricky. And I think coming back to the comments made in all these books, the point was, they need to feel that they're in control of this somehow. So when they come home, rather than saying, Have you done your homework, you say, so What time were you thinking of doing your homework so we can plan your evening time around it? Or where were you thinking of doing your homework, little hints like that. What I've done with my daughter, because she finds it very challenging, is I have said to her 'all your electronic devices need to come in and sit on the kitchen table when you come home. And there was a little bit of pushback on that. But actually I said to her, this is not a punishment, I'm trying to give you space, so that you can do the things that you really should be doing, which is, you know, relaxing, doing other stuff. When you do your homework, you can do it here at the kitchen table. Or you can do it in your room. If you do it in your room, you can take your computer with you for half an hour, because you're not going to work longer than that no one does. And then you can come down for a break and then go back again if you need to. And she went away for half an hour. It was a struggle on her own. So came back and then we sat together. And actually it's been transformative, because she feels like it's her choice. And also because I had said to her so what actually are you trying to achieve here? Do you want these grades? Does it even matter? And because she wants them she wants to get better.
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She wants to be in better classes. She wants to be with her friends who are, you know, academic. She is now prepared to put in there that extra work, make the mistakes try again, because it's her who's doing it.
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It's not me.
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I mean, then if you have a kid who who's not really bothered, gets bad grades, and doesn't care. Maybe that's fine.
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We don't have a structure with homework, I kind of leave it for them to do themselves. And they do it very differently, like one will do it immediately they get home from school because they don't want it hanging over them.
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And the other one will be doing it after bedtime. But the idea that, you know, if they don't do it, then that's on them.
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Yes. And they do say you have to let your child fail, but I'd say you are the person with the knowledge.
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So in letting them fail, you need to say so here are the consequences. Should you fail.
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Yeah, no, yeah, they learn them anyway. You know, they'll meet them anyway.
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What one of them was saying was that is not about not giving them boundaries, you actually do have to have something they can push back against so that they can test their real resolve? Is this something that really matters to me or not? And if it doesn't matter, to me, I'm making a choice. It's not a passive choice, it's an active choice, that this really doesn't matter to me. And I don't care if I don't then have this option.
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Yeah, so what we need to do is present them 'here are your options.' So if you don't pass these exams what you can do is this, that, you know, the here are your options and being really positive about not threatening them just saying. So you get these options and here's how you can manage this life that you're designing for yourself, you're in control, you make those choices.
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and providing them with a with a safe space, because sometimes that can really stress them out as well can't it, the idea that they have all these choices, and it's up to them. One of my kids didn't do very well in some tests. And I just kind of said you know that doesn't matter. So she knows that she's absolutely loved and accepted just for who she is. Whereas school is different.
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You're so right. They need to know that your love is completely disconnected to anything they've managed to do in school. All the mistakes they make are irrelevant.
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Totally irrelevant, totally. And they value them for exactly who they are and what they bring to the table just by being who they are.
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What do you think? Have you found certain things work for you in your teenagers? Join our discussions on Facebook and Instagram or email us at help at teenagers untangled.com. Now on to Emma's question it which is similar, but my 14 year old who is very musical wants to stop playing the piano. Now she is grade four. I'm so upset about it because when ever she seems to be good at something she goes so far, then just gives up and wants to hang with her friends, what should I do? You must have had battles over musical instruments Susie? Presumably your children play musical instruments?
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Yeah, I mean, they've all played and play. And as a musician and I teach music I have found that hard probably because it's really close to home. Because the idea of playing a musical instrument is such a brilliant thing to do both for the fact that you're learning the instrument, but it also is such an enriching thing.
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You know, however, the learning process can be a bit boring sometimes, you know, it's a little bit of homework, like, you know, if you put the work in for the first few years, then it becomes more fun. And going to practice every time isn't interesting. You know, I've talked for years, and parents will say, yeah, they don't really want to practice. And I'd be like, well, it's not really surprising. But of course, and then where is the line between kind of dragging them up to do the practice? Because it isn't homework, it's not compulsory, and going 'actually, do you know what, you don't like it at all?
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Do you? Let's just let it go.' I have personally found that difficult, because then all of mine have played instruments and have decided that they didn't want to.
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How did that go down in your household? Um, well, I mean, was it a similar situation?
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Yeah, I mean, my, my boys both played cello. And, you know, had played for a long time and then didn't want to play anymore. And I tried to sort of nudge them along for a long time, you know, trying to persuade, you know, just keep going thinking you could get over that period, which I think the listener is referring to where they don't want to do that, they want to hang out with their mates. Cellos are really uncool, it's heavy, it's annoying. They didn't seem to enjoy the orchestra side, which is what kept me going, I think, because I was in youth orchestra. And it was social.
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They didn't seem to enjoy that either. So there wasn't really a carrot in that respect. But there were elements they did enjoy. So I did try and nudge them over that. And then they then went, Okay, we're kind of done here, aren't we? Ouch.
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So it's a really interesting one, because I have step-daughters. And I remember my husband having a conversation with the oldest one on the telephone. And I was trying to work out what they were talking about. And it turned out, it was that she was a harp player. And she was doing her A levels. And she was finding it really hard to find time to practice and to go to the harp lessons too. And his response was, Well, why are you doing it? And she said, I don't know, because I booked in for them. And he said, What are you gaining from the lessons? And she said, Well, nothing, I'm just stressed at the moment. He said, Well, just don't do them.
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And that was that. And I think his point was, she's never going to be an international harpist.
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This is not going to be her career. So what is she trying to gain from it. And they talk about flow, I'm sure some people are very familiar with the concept. Some people aren't. But flow is that mental state, you get into when you're working in an area that you're fascinated by, or on a problem that you're fascinated by. And it happens when you're playing a musical instrument where your mind just, it leaves all the other nonsense behind and you're simply focused on the task. And this is one of the magical things you can get from playing a musical instrument. And you will be rewarded with that when you get to a certain stage, which is what you're talking about, that you want your child to reach.
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Yeah, you don't get flow until you're technically good enough. .
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And so it is very tricky. But it rang true with me. So my daughter got to a similar stage where she is extremely musical, but she just said, I'm not loving the exams.
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I don't really like doing the grades, I don't want it. And I had been trying to get her to practice and it just wasn't happening. And she said, can I give it up? I said, Oh, Okay.
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And I did, I did wonder what am I doing here? But I did think about my husband who had given up the piano as well. And when I first met him, the only time he would play the piano was when he was drunk. And I said, you''d probably be a lot better at playing the piano if you took lessons and played when you weren't drunk. The thing is his mother was at the Royal Academy, and I think he felt quite intimidated by the importance of getting grades. And she's very, very structured. And she wants you know, when she goes to a concert, she's very critical if they're not quite right. And I think that he really struggled with that, even though he probably wouldn't want to talk about it. And so he started taking lessons and he's now taking grade eight and loving it. His practice comes and goes sometimes he's really motivated, and works and works. So then with my daughter we are incredibly lucky because we have a piano at home, which is an incredible luxury. Anywa, she still tinkered. And she started doing well again. And she decidedd to start again and skipped to grade six. Yeah, because all that time she was still fiddling. There are things missing, like her sight reading is atrocious. And so she's never going to get grade six without improving that
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sight reading is really hard on this.
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And I'd said to her, when you were a little girl, you would go into school every day, you'd come back with these reader books, they were very dull. And I would make you sit down, you had to read the book. And, you don't remember that because it's just, it's boring. It's practice, but you were young enough to just get through it to the point where you were fluent enough where it was enjoyable. And you have to do that with sight reading. It's literally just forcing yourself to go through the structure. And that's the big problem, which you were talking about, if you can kind of get your child over that. But the truth is, what you want is you want them to have something that they can enjoy for their life.
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Yeah, yeah, I think the hard bit is, I think once they get to a certain age, so like the harp and A levels, then they kind of know whether it's important or not, it's the earlier teen years where, because I know it was mine. And from teaching as well, I've experienced it many times, and I know I experienced it myself.
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And suddenly other things are more important. And you just want to do what your mates are doing. And for my kids, particularly one of them, you know, none of his mates had anything to do with the music department. So it was a bit like he's a sporty kid, they're the sporty guys. So to be dragging a cello on the train, having to go to lessons when it's football practice was not cool. He just wanted to hang out with his mates and not be having to do orchestra and stuff like that.
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So for him, it was very much a social thing. So where do you draw the line? I think it's just a conversation you have to have with your kid, you know, try and find out. How important is playing? Is there any enjoyment there? Or is it pure misery?
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But also, what is it about hanging out with your mates that means you now can't play an instrument? The truth is, those teenage friends are critical in developing some of these social skills. So it's not like she's not actually gaining skills. But what she's done is she's focusing in a completely new area. And maybe if you actually sit down and ask her, you know what it is about being with her friends, that's so important? Is there any way that she can fit these other skills in? Or perhaps just park it and say, does it give you this joy?
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Yes, it's the social side. I went to lots of youth orchestras as a teenager. And we did lots of exciting things. And that was very social. I don't remember doing a lot of practice to be honest.
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It's very it's relevant. Because also, for example, in sport, I have a friend whose son was excellent in fencing really, really good.
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And he was told by his fencing teacher, if you just keep going, you could fence for England and then and he just came back and said, you know, what, this just doesn't cut it with my mates.
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They think it's like ballet. I want to be a rugby player, I want to get good at that. So he dropped it in spite of the fact he was really good at it, to focus all his energy on rugby, because that gave him his social kudos. And he became, you know, the guy that everybody wanted to be around. And we have to sort of accept sometimes our kids.
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You may think you could be so good at this. And accept that this isn't the direction they want to go in and this matters much more to them.
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And I think they do carry on with it if it's that important. and we also mustn't belittle the the idea of wanting to be with your mates as a kid as a teenager is kind of aligned with survival. It's so important that you feel that you fit in, and that you have have a social system that works, you know, whatever kind of a child you are, it's really really key.
00:29:20.548 --> 00:29:24.029
It does become key.
00:29:24.029 --> 00:29:27.509
It's not just I want to hang out with my mates it's actually really important.
00:29:27.509 --> 00:30:14.940
And learning those social skills which will help them in the workplace.listening. Speak to you next time. Bye
