Transcript
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Hello, I'm Rachel Richards and welcome to Teenagers Untangled the audio hug where we use research by experts and our own experience to discuss everything and anything to do with parenting teenagers.
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Hi, I'm Susie Asli,mindfulness coach, mindful therapist and musician, a mother of three teenagers two of them twins.
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As a parenting coach, mother of two teenagers and two bonus stepdaughters.
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I've seen the transformative power of getting people together to share ideas and support each other. So here we are welcome.
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Pull up a chair. And let's begin. This week, a lady who wishes to remain anonymous says her son who's just turned 13 is having anger management issues, his friends know exactly what triggers him and they like to wind them up. It's getting him into trouble at school, he can also fly off the handle at home.
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And it takes a lot of reasoning to calm him down, which normally ends in tears. We'll talk through the developmental stages which gives us a really good anchor to understand what's going on how to support him so that he develops those anger management skills, and how to spot when it's something a bit more challenging that needs some professional support. Now, nuggets, Susie,
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So my nugget today is the old chestnut that we've talked about before, which is parenting teens goes from being full time activity on call to part time of that stuff and full time availability. So I'm just really aware of that at the moment that keeps cropping up.
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So I have a son who's doing a levels during his final exams. I can't do them. I can't do his revision, I can't do the exams, thank God. But I'm really there for him. Like I'm driving him to his exams. I'm making sure he's got nice food, I'm nudging him still, you've done that work. My daughter went to a big pop concert that weekend, you know, and she's still only 15. So you know, I picked her up and was nearby because it was really hot. And one of them felt poorly, you know, I'm available.
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I'm not there with you. But I'm available when you need. And I think that's just they kind of they lose a safety net is the safety nurse and it's just really love. It's different.
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It's really, really, really, really valuable,
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Yes, really valuable. My teenager forgot something again. So she's done this before. I charged her using the allowance for the petrol. We went through this in a previous episode. She's done it again.
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And this time, she called me when I'd just finished a one hour drive, dropping the other one and I still had another one hour drive. It was late. I was tired. I completely lost my rag.
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I mean, I don't normally do this. But when I said to her, because normally I say Right, let's think this through. And this time I just said, Okay, now I'm really annoyed. And the problem was when I said that, then my body went Oh, you're really annoyed, and I actually felt it coursing through my veins and just lost it. Because I'm human. And it's horrible.
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When they were little, I used to warn them pre-warn them and I'd say I'm shouty mommy's about to come out. Okay, okay, because I hate shouting, because I can feel the loss of control. So I just said, I need to hang up because I'm in the car. I can't even talk about this and think about this right now. And she was trying to be really sweet about it. I then realized that the problem with the system with the allowance is it works very, very well until it doesn't, which is that I had charged her for the petrol for the last time and we've gone through this whole system or she'd learned and then I thought 'Is it like that situation where when a nursery kept having parents turning up late to collect their kids, they then said right, there's a five pound fine to stop the parents doing that. But all you've done was told them how much it costs, so parents thought, 'I can I can afford £5' So that made me think actually am I creating the problem? And actually I don't think that's the case. But some of the things I'll talk about in this particular episode really helped me understand what's going on here because I've realized that she is not just that she's being lazy and difficult. It's a brain development stage.
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I totally get that and I'm can't wait to hear what you have to say. This mornning my son left his PE bag. We thought it was on the train. We ran around looking for it.
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Eventually we found it. It was in the back of the car. This is a regular occurrence of losing things so I can't wait to hear what you have to say.
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Before we return to our main subject, we've had feedback from the lady who asked us to support her with the son who'd been getting into trouble. She says she's been heaping on the praise for the good things he does, which is what we always say, increased activities they did together. So they played crazy golf the other day. And she has been saying no to group opportunities where he can get into trouble. And he has pushed back on that. But she says the restrictions have made the situation improve. I think when you say, No, you can't go to that thing, if you've had the discussion with him about how his brain's developing and what's going on, it's easier for him to say, Oh, my mom's mean, I hate her for doing this. Yeah.
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Rather than having to say to your mates, I'm not going to do that, because it's a really stupid thing to do.
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So back to the lady whose 13 year old boy has been struggling with anger. Many parents want their teen to stop being angry. Because they see anger as the problem. Yes. And I know, you know. So it's not the problem. Please talk about this.
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Why is anger not the problem?
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Well, anger is a feeling. And we don't choose our feelings. It's something that comes up organically. And naturally, anger is a signal all that there is something that's out of balance, usually something that feels unfair, or we feel badly treated, or Yeah, it's usually a sensing or somebody's crossed our boundaries, or we've crossed our own boundaries and are annoyed at ourselves, which comes out as anger and frustration. So we can take it as a signal and respond to that.
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What happens is, we try and get rid of that feeling because we are told through society and it feels it doesn't feel very nice either. That it's a bad thing.
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You mustn't be angry, especially for girls mustn't be angry. But the actual feeling is a signal.
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So we need to sort of stop and go, Well, what's it trying to signal and understand that. We can't help the feelings that come up, but what we can do - what we have to practice and teach our teenagers and ourselves - is we can help the behavior that comes out of the anger. The way we respond is completely our responsibility.
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But that needs practice.
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As in the Chimp Paradox, where they say, you can't help the thing you were born with. But you do actually have to train it.
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This society is very anti-anger. We will we want nice, compliant children. That do what they're told.
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So Maggie Dent wrote a book - From Boys to Men, and she says exactly what you're saying. She says, the thing about being a teenager is that it triggers stress in adolescence, because things are changing. So much physical, hormonal changes, cognitive changes, you know, there's social landscape changes. With boys, there's a man box, which we've talked about, in our episode about boy friendships.
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And this still is prevalent and'real men' are not supposed to show vulnerable feelings. Anger is the one acceptable emotion for men to express. So this does become quite a big thing with boys. And we found this when we were talking about anxiety, one of the big problems is finding the words to express the emotions you're feeling which is very, very tricky.
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And another really important point about anger is anger is nearly always a secondary emotion, it's a response to something that is painful. And that's usually a sort of a sadness or, or something else underneath. It's a secondary emotion.
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Particularly with teenagers becoming a group which we've talked about before- it feels very, very important.
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It's like life or death I need to be in this group. And with a teenager who feels that their belonging in the group is threatened, it can trigger stress and anger. So with this boy, his mates know exactly how to press his buttons. It can be a poorly received attempt at banter, which boys love, physical connection like a punch or a shove that goes badly.
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Someone laughing at you, and the embarrassment can then turn into anger,
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banter and all of that only works if the space is safe.
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Exactly. And so that anger, if they try and swallow it can turn into resentment and then become an even stronger rage later. But there's also a physical change that's going on with teenagers.
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This is significant growth in the limbic, or the emotional brain, which we've talked about before a lot. And boys have a very simple, you know, undeveloped prefrontal cortex, which is the thing that kind of gets them to think.
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Yep. nodding yes.
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And, boys have testosterone on top of that, it can then make them catastrophize when things aren't quite right, the emotional side will ramp up the response. And that inner critic becomes very loud. And it's very quick. So the anger can be self directed criticism turned outward. So the synaptic pruning that goes on has a really important impact on the brain. So we know that the with the brand synapses, this is the biggest pruning that ever goes on in our lives and be bigger than when they're very little.
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Apparently it increases forgetfulness. It creates poor organization, and inability to manage moods, remembering things, I thought, Oh, my goodness, yes, that's what's going on with my daughter. It's the remembering things. Because what's happening is these, the pruning is going on, there are little gaps that have been created and, and connections that have been cut. I thought this was fascinating because we do accuse our daughter of mumbling and not speaking articulately. Now I know it's to do with the pruning, I thought, Oh, my goodness, wow. Yes. And when you call them out on it, it's embarrassing again, so then it just causes this sense of, you know, there's something wrong with me. Now, there's nothing wrong, your being a teenager, it's okay. And then on top of all of that, we talked about this sleep debt, which is a massive problem in our teenagers. It increases anxiety, emotional outbursts, forgetfulness, all of those things, that then our teens think, oh, there's something wrong with me. So Michael Gurion, who's a practical philosopher who's written extensively on nature based theory, says teenagers - and particularly teen boys tend to attack themselves inwardly. They feel like a failure, they feel excluded. And the, the feelings are real, What can we do as parents? the first thing is that this relationship that we can develop with our teen boys, where they feel loved, valued and respected, can be balm for all of this. So what that lady has done, where her son was misbehaving, where she's ramped up her feedback when he's doing anything good, - is a really, really powerful thing. And you have to be genuine. But notice when they do something, right, rather than all the things they're doing wrong, because they are feeling vulnerable.
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Yeah. That's so brilliant, so important, actually, my son this morning when he lost his PE kit, but there's been a catalogue of things he's done. So this was like, the final straw. So I was quite annoyed this morning, but I did manage to take myself out of the room. And because he said, mum you're always telling me off. And that's not normal for me and him. So I kind of stopped and had to think about it. But I had thought before we spoke about this, I need to sit him down, and we need to sort of work out how to be a bit more structured about stuff. But also I need to remind him of how amazing I think he is, as well.
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All sorts of other things. Yes.
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And I often say to mine, you know, thanks for hanging out with me. It's really fun to hang out with you. Just always. I'm really proud of yod. They say.
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Why? I say, just for being you.
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Which rebalances; doesn't it?
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Because otherwise it's all you've forgotten this, You've done that.
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Yeah, exactly.
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When I lost it with my daughter, I actually managed to say, by the way, I still love you. Yes.
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So identifying anger in our teen is a team effort. And what I mean by that is helping them be able to see what's going on,
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then they're probably annoyed at themselves.
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My son was really annoyed at himself this morning, where what have I done now, and that's different.
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Yes, we don't need to pile on the stress by then telling them they've done something terrible. So there are anger characteristics that can be internal, as well as external. So we know what the external ones are but there are also things like negative self talk. I'm always saying when my daughter says, I'm terrible at this, I just say no, you're listening to yourself. Stop it.
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And self sabotage, low self esteem.
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That's a really important point I think you're making there, we have to be really careful that they're not internalizing anger, because especially the girls, and that's a massive generalization, but then that can turn into you know, all those really destructive behaviors of, you know, had an eating disorders harm, self harm that is internalized, internalized stuff. Shouting and screaming is much better. Yes, because it's out, yes. You can go the other way. I mean, my daughter makes me laugh. She's heard of, you know, some stuff that's happened lately. And she, gets quickly very cross, we will run for cover. And other people go really, we never see that. Yeah, at home, she's in a safe space.
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She's allowed to be angry, you always say I'm allowed to be angry. I say, absolutely you're allowed to be as angry as you like, however, I don't have to listen to this.
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Yes, So it's our feedback and our, information on how to manage it, that's going to be so valuable.
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So. what can you do to help your angry teenager and I agree with you, I think girls are told to be nice. And to not and, and it's important, I keep trying to say to them, you know, you have a right to occupy space. And if you're feeling this, feel free to explain it.
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My youngest, I was irritated with something the
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Yes, this is a thing. We can model this. We can other day and then later, I always say go I'm sorry I got annoyed about that. He said, you don't have to say sorry for getting annoyed; you're allowed to be annoyed. He's listening.
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You can also really help them by teaching them to talk about and how it works for us. And then they hear it and then they'll hopefully say that to their friends and it spreads all the joy to everybody. So normalize what's going on.
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That's the first thing because when they get angry they think there's something broken. So talk to them about what's happening with the synaptic pruning and say okay, this is a signal, what's the signal? Give them a safe space. If they're the sort of kid that started destroying things around them, you need to set up a place where they can go and say, Okay, no one's going to interrupt you if you go in there. And find the things that will calm them down.
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Yeah, you can use whatever; whether it's punching something, you know, anything, playing music, tune in. And we've talked about this before they kick off. Some kids have a really long build up; a long fuse. And some adults do, too. Where you're, you know, Oh, I'm getting annoyed. I'm getting annoyed. And I'm guessing some people have like a nanosecond where they have no warning, and then they just explode. And I've said this before on the podcast, but maybe it's worth repeating here. With my eldest when he was younger, he had a very short fuse, which he actually doesn't really have any more. He's very, very different. But before, he couldn't contain it. So we had a word. He picked the word, which was Flint. And if he said the word Flint, then we had a strategy or just that awareness that I am now really raging. He used it a few years later when he was really annoyed with me about something and I kept trying to rationalize it. And he just went he just looked me in the eye and I thought we'd forgotten about the word he went. Flint. Okay, uh, hey, I'm gonna leave you alone.
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Great, brilliant. Love it. And that's that's giving you a tool that everybody can understand. Yeah.
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And also the emotional regulation episode that we talked about where it's just being able to have tools not to overreact so before that, pause and breathe.
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and tune in. What does it know? Am I angry? Yes.
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What does that feel like in my body? Is it like a tingling? Is it like a punch in the stomach?
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Is it in my hands go hot and does my head... you know, so they really aware of the physical symptoms of anger so they can pick it up really quickly?
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Yes, it's not that you're broken. Just understand your your triggers.
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So trying to get them to understand and be self aware what to say and what not to say.
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You can say I can see your anger I understand. I totally get it and you need to know let them know you're not demanding anything from them or setting expectations from them at that moment. And avoid further confrontation when they get angry trying to punish them or or confront them is just going to add problems
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because their brain has actually gone offline and you cannot have a rational conversation with anybody who is raging. They, they can't. So there's no point; you'll just rage with them and don't escalate with them now,
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and our listener, she was absolutely lovely because she said, this happens at home. And it takes a lot of calming him down. And then he's tearful afterwards,
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And maybe it's really empowering, isn't it? So because of all the things we've talked about, it feels horrible.
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And he feels like there's something wrong with him for if he's in a situation at school, he feels a bit more getting so angry. And it's not what he wants. He's not being a bad person. It's just very difficult to manage. Now, after an angry outburst, like for example, this situation, you can talk things through in a nice, quiet, neutral tone, and explore empowered. What can I do when this happens? Again, what what happened. Yes. And they may say, I don't want to talk about strategies do I have? Can I remove myself, and then he'll it. And you say, well, let's, let's unpack it, because then you can slowly work up some tools to help yourself. What happened? What was missing?
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Yeah, could anything have been different for you? What can we do to support you so that they know that it's not that they're bad, it's that we need to help you with the environment.
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feel more confident, less chaotic and less powerless.
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So it's a great point you made. So he's got these kids at school, who were supposed to be his friends but they know what his triggers are.
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To be honest, when I was a kid, well, my sister would say, Don't do that. And I'd say, What, this?
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Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
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Because, you think, Oh, this is entertaining.
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So you know, they're being kids, right? They've crossed the line.
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And so we know that, we've talked about how this, you know, personal relationship with your friends can tip over into something that's unpleasant, when they don't realize that what they're doing seems fun and entertaining but is hurting.
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And then they repeat it and repeat it. And they know that they're causing pain.
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We're bored, let's goad him. So for her son, she can create a list of his triggers. Get him to sit down, say, what is it that they're doing, that's pissing you off, and look at them daily. So I've got this brilliant worksheet, I've linked to in the podcast. I recommend you print it off because it's really got some good tips. So create the list of the triggers. And you can keep adding to it. Look at it daily, because otherwise, you'll forget what it is. Review the triggers so that they're fresh in your mind. And then you can have a plan for how to avoid those things. When you're tired and you're not capable, you're feeling you're already feeling a bit stressed. So if his mates, trigger him he can walk away from the situation. Or you could feed back and say, use the flint way and say, Guys, you do this, it's gonna piss me off. And I don't want to get into trouble with the school and your, you know, whatever's going to work, because I don't know the dynamic with those friends.
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And if it's possible to have a conversation with him, I don't know.
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she needs to talk this through with her son So what's the anger signal? What are the triggers? And then keep an anger log and try and think what was happening before? Was I hungry? Was I stressed? What other things were happening around me? Because sometimes they're a response to your environment,
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And the less reactive he is, the less interesting it is to his mates.
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Exactly. And that's how it defuses. My husband's got a WhatsApp group with a whole load of mates of his, and the banter on there is severe. Sometimes I look at it and I'm stunned. They press this guy's buttons, because they know it'll piss him off and that it's very funny. He's older now so he's able to take it, but every now and then I think that might be a bit too much.
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Yeah. I mean, in a school environment, if that's going on that's a form of bullying. That's not cool. If it's just against one person who is reacting, so it's teaching him how to manage it, yes, and to be less reactive and to manage his anger, which is a really great skill to have, because he obviously finds that difficult. And it's also acknowledging that actually, that's not really cool of them.
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Even though we understand banter, even though we completely agree, it's all part of being a teenager that to be picking on one particular kid that's not cool.
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And can we think of words that he can use with his group to say my That's not cool. Yeah, no, stop that one. Because that's not funny anymore. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, they'll think it's entertaining and they haven't realized how much they're overstepping the mark. So him being able to say, right, you need to stop that don't be like that. And yes, and sometimes he needs to be able to express himself. And if he can't, then he's not in the right room.
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Yeah. But it's little bit like siblings, but it's different when it's not your family. If the space is safe. I mean, my kids are brutal with each other and yet, everybody knows that. And they're brutal with me as well.
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But then we know that that's okay, because there's love.
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But that's shorthand for having a great relationship. So the point I'm trying to make is that these boys may not really be conscious of it. Because we can say that's bullying, and that's nasty. But actually, they may not be conscious, that they're really overstepping the mark. And part of being in a relationship is being able to get some feedback.
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And then learning from it, too. You're absolutely right, because it is, it's a group thing. And they didn't
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they didn't realize how much it's impacting realize him. So using diversions and practicing timeouts; there are lots of things you can use in your armory. And I want to quickly touch on how we know if actually, it's something that perhaps professional help would be important with. I was listening to a therapist the other day, and she said, You know, I'm worried because I keep getting people coming to me as soon as something goes wrong.
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And she said, yes I'm a therapist, and I want to make money. But I don't want these parents using me before they've exhausted all the opportunities at home for their relationship with their kid because this triangle develops and I become the good guy. And we don't want that we want the parent to be the good guy together with their teen, looking out at problems.
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So she said, Try everything before you try therapy.
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You're absolutely right. And also a point in that is that we need to look at our own relationship to anger.
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Because we, as a society, find anger really confronting. We don't like it. So we want to get rid of it. So what is your relationship to anger? And how do you manage your own?
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Such great point. And you can listen to those episodes where we cover these things, because knowing ourselves makes it possible to support our teen.
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Because if we don't, if we find anger really difficult, we're going to want to get rid of it in our case.
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Yes, absolutely. Often, problems with anger can accompany other conditions like ADHD, autism, obsessive compulsive disorder, Tourette Syndrome. So there can be other underlying things, they may already have been noticed or so just realize that these things can come together
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And often particularly with teenagers and if it's not, you know, on the spectrum type outburst then it's when teenagers don't feel seen and heard if we didn't, if they don't feel really listened to.
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Because often if you sit down and say this is actually how I feel. And then by the end somebody's really heard you and really listened, not fixed it - just really listened and really heard. You go Oh, I can relax.
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yes, the LUFU, listen until they feel understood. Exactly. And Understanding that it's really important to be respectful of the things that matter to your teenager, you may think that they're not important, but that's not going to help them.
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And it's the class, you know, they come home and they feel like they've been unfairly treated at home or they've got tons of homework.
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And sometimes we step in and go.
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Oh, yeah, that's really important. You need to do that.
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Oh, that's so annoying.
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I love it.
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Yeah, they totally feel seen.
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Yeah. So what do you think? Have you had any experience of anger issues, either with yourself or with your teens? Have you used any of our techniques? Have you found them useful? What is the most useful thing for you? We'd love to hear because we always mentioned these things because we kind of tried to help each other. Yeah. And trying to learn as we go really,
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really helpful.
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Nothing wrong with anger, but our management of it is really important.
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I remember Grace Jones sitting being interviewed, and she said, she said, Gosh, you really get hangry. And she said, Yes, I got a stomach ulcer, and I've realized it's much more important to express my brilliance. Exactly.
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That is because there's a massive difference between clean anger and resentment. Yes, like you've done that I've experienced that I'm really annoyed. Yes, that's clean anger. And that's really just but resentment and like, that goes into the stomach ulcer.
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Exactly, exactly. So if you've enjoyed this episode, then help other parents tell your friends tell the school hit that subscribe button. And yes, give us a review. You can also sign up to receive all the latest at our own website where there's a blog reviews links to every episode and easy ways to contact us both. It's www.teenagersuntangled.com Don't forget to check out Suzy she's on Instagram. She gives lots of lots of great tips there. Also her website which is
00:31:49.289 --> 00:31:58.049
www.amindful- life.co.uk and book a free chat with me on that if you're so fancy and lots
00:31:58.289 --> 00:32:05.910
of banter, she has a blog. The blog is really good. So many great tips on there. So don't forget to have a look at that. That's it for now.
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Goodbye. Bye for now.
