April 8, 2025
137: Identity formation - the main job of a teenager?
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In psychology, the term "identity" is most commonly used to describe the distinctive qualities or traits that make an individual unique. Identities are strongly associated with self-esteem, and individuality and - for a teenager - forming their identity is a crucial job.
It's been over two years since I created the first episode looking at the topic of identity formation. In this episode I have pulled material from the orginal discussion, and brought in Susie to revisit the topic so we can discuss what we have learned during our parenting journeys.
One of the key issues we discuss is the imortance of being flexible and not fixing a child's identity, so they have room to develop and grow. We can help this by supporting their teens' self-worth and personal growth; having open discussions about perceptions and roles.
BOOKS:
- Inventing Ourselves; The Secret Life of the Teenage Brain by Sarah Jayne Blakemore
- His Dark Materials - Phillip Pullman
- How to Raise a Healthy Gamer - Dr Alok Kanojia
RESOURCES:
Identity
https://www.choosingtherapy.com/identity-crisis/
https://www.harleytherapy.co.uk/counselling/who-am-i-identity-crisis.htm
https://aspiroadventure.com/blog/why-is-teen-identity-development-important/#:~:text=Identity%20formation%20in%20teens%20is,most%20of%20their%20adult%20life.
The 8 stages of development Eric Ericson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYCBdZLCDBQ&t=28s
Thank you so much for your support.
Please hit the follow button if you like the podcast, and share it with anyone who might benefit. You can review us on Apple podcasts by going to the show page, scrolling down to the bottom where you can click on a star then you can leave your message.
I don't have medical training so please seek the advice of a specialist if you're not coping.
My email is teenagersuntangled@gmail.com
My website has a blog, searchable episodes, and ways to contact us:
www.teenagersuntangled.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/teenagersuntangled/
Facebook: https://m.facebook.com/teenagersuntangled/
Susie is available for a free 15 minute consultation, and has a great blog:
www.amindful-life.co.uk
00:00 - Identity Formation and Parenting Challenges
01:36 - Challenges of Letting Go and Control
06:18 - Teenagers and Social Roles
10:08 - Identity and Self-Worth
15:09 - Online Influences and Identity
23:34 - Personal Growth and Relationships
35:26 - Identity and Self-Worth
35:55 - Online Influences and Identity
43:29 - Family Communication
WEBVTT
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Suz, hello and welcome to teenagers. Untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teenage years where no question is a bad question.
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I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, parenting coach, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters.
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Hi there. I'm Susie Asli, mindfulness coach, mindful therapist and musician and mother of three. Oh, hang on, I'm gonna have to redo that.
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Let's go for it. Three young people, hello. I'm Susie Astley.
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I'm mindfulness coach, mindful therapist and musician and mother of three young people, two of them are teenagers, and one of them
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is 20. I know we really haven't you're gonna have to get that script done.
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You get that kind of laugh.
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You have been saying three teenagers, yes. And
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do you remember talking about the identity formation episode? I do see your identity is as the mother of three teenagers, but
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it's not, how am I gonna How am I gonna live? How am I gonna get home? Yeah, so
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the identity formation one was in october 2022. You don't have to go back to it, because we are going to revisit. So it's now two and a half years on from that, and I think it's a really good time to talk about identity again. I read an excellent book a year or so ago called inventing ourselves, The Secret Life of the teenage brain, by Sarah Jane Blakemore, who's a leading cognitive neuroscience, and she writes really well. Her position is that identity formation is the job of adolescence. And I like that. Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it, you know, before I started the podcast.
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But so what I'm going to do is include a large clip of the original chat, because there were some great points. I think we were great, weren't we? Well,
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yeah. I mean, I mean, I went back thinking, Oh, this is going to be really cringe because, because we weren't getting it for very long, and makes quite good points. Who was that I need to
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write that
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I don't do that anymore. That's a good idea.
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Yeah, I there was a lot of research in it, so I don't want to lose that and and then I thought we could talk about how we've seen our own kids identities grow and shift.
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Yes, because I think it'll help parents who are both at the start of the journey and later on. Yeah. So let's start with nuggets. Do you have one?
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Yeah, I do. So mine's a bit more soul searching today. It's, it's to do with control. So this idea of of letting go. So I have one particular kid who is quite disorganized and quite time management challenged, and we've had various discussions, some of them positive, some of them less positive, and, and, and it's, it's quite challenging. We're working through it, but this whole concept of letting go, which I absolutely 100% adhere to and found actually quite easy when they were younger teens.
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And was looking around, going, Why does everyone find this so hard? And now I'm going, oh, and I realized that I'm actually by by not wanting to let go. And I do let go in lots of ways, but there's some bits where I go is I'm trying to actually control the present moment because I'm trying to actually control the future interesting, and I'm trying to control the future because I not because I want the future to look a particular way. But I'm concerned that whether I can cope with a Fallout, or my child can cope with a fallout? Yes. So it's not so much the event. It's can we cope with a potential event? So I kind of try and cling on to keeping the present moment as it is, so that the future is also okay, so that then the fallout doesn't happen and maybe we don't have to go there. Fascinating. And I was like, oh, yeah, yikes, yeah, that's very helpful.
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It's really helpful. And it's helpful for me, because I've got one of those two, but also something that's happened recently, which isn't my target, but when I've been talking to my daughter, I've realized, when we keep I keep going back over these like, why are you doing this right now because the habits you're forming right now will stay with you for your life. And she says, Well, that's rubbish. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to change. And I said, When are you going to change? When does that happen? And she said, You know, when I go to work. And I said to her, but you know what? When you go to work, you're so overwhelmed with having to learn new skills, you're going to fall back on whatever habits you have. Yeah. And she said, Well, what do you annoy? It had never occurred to her. And I said, I'm not I'm not trying to make your life boring and know anything right now. And I really understand that being tidy is not a priority for you, but I want you to understand that the habits you form will be the things you have to fall back on and if you haven't got good habits, it's really hard, I know, because I grew up in chaos, and I spent my entire adult life slowly inching forward, learning new habits.
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Yes, and it's every that's why I do New Year's resolutions every year, because I think now what can I fix? Yeah, just, and it's not fixing as in, there's something wrong with me. It's like, how can I make my life? It easier, because this is really still hard. Yeah, and
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then communicate. So my, my nugget is related to that, isn't it? So communicating that is, how much do we How much do we do that and nudge and go, but I know this is important, and how much do we go let go, because now it's your job, and I have to let go, otherwise we'll all go insane. And what I'm, what I'm, as I've just explained, is doing is trying to control the future as well. So I don't have because I'm worried subconscious, your subconscious, whether I can cope with that Fallout, or whether he can CO or she can cope with that fallout.
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And I think the antidote for me, which is of what I'm practicing at the moment, is trust, I love it, so trust it will be okay. I don't know what that looks like.
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So, you know the classic, take care of the process and let go of the outcome. But
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don't you think it's a bit of a dance. So you told that for a while, and then you have to go back in again and ask questions. And I'm always sort of front foot in the questions, like, why are you doing this? And then she'll tell me something, and I go, Oh yeah, okay, it's you think this, and what you're thinking isn't necessarily correct, yes, totally. You have to be. You have to ease off, yeah, and have all the fun and do the other things, and then every now and then go back and say, Yeah, or it could work
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out in a less healthy way, which I do sometimes, like I've let go.
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Yeah, it's all yours. It's all yours. And yeah, but yeah, but yeah, but no. What about that?
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The screaming up the stairs and the rap? Yeah, you've fallen over, landing that they've left. Yeah, totally get that, but it's interesting on that. I love that your share aspect, yeah, and I'm sure we can all relate to that, Yeah, mine came up in a car conversation with my daughter, and it was about students using AI to complete essays and tasks that were set for them. And it was such an interesting thing, because she doesn't, and this is the one who has a place at Oxford, so she's clearly worked really hard on, you know, going, I don't know, she works really, really hard on her essays and things. And I just said, you know, what's interesting is I feel like when people do that, because I know a lot of kids do that, and I said, The problem is that they're missing the point about the essay, because the essay isn't set by the teacher to give them something to do and to give them something to mark.
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Because you could say, well, that's just so I can get the grades so I can pass. It's actually there to help you build the skills and practice them.
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Yeah, right. And it's like getting AI to do your gym workout, and you're not going to get any muscles. I know, when I said that, she looked at me and I went, I know. I wish there will be work, there will come a day, there will come a day, and your body goes amazing. Can't wait. Oh, I've only but, but, you see my point. So my point is that it's, it's really interesting, that there's that the kids who are doing that, the only problem is that they're not actually getting the benefit from the so are we wasting our time completely? Now, what's the point? And because also, AI is moving so quickly that by the time the kids actually go because you say, well, you're, I'm learning for the workplace, but by the time you get into the workplace, it will all have changed Anyway, well, particularly with my kids, because they're not anywhere near there yet. And actually, I would imagine you can probably do some quick courses, and you're good with AI in the same way that you don't have to teach a three year old how to swipe on it. They can navigate this stuff. So I just, I was just like, you know, we need to actually stick with the skills and building the memory and all those things, which is boring and hard work, but it's worth it. Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
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Totally agree with that. Anyway, back to the I want, the I want, the chip that I can stick in for the gym workout. Do you have a review? I do.
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Finally, I found someone who understands and talks sense. I think they're talking about you. Rachel hardly, oh, hi. I've just recently found you, and I just want to say thank you. We've chatted through messages and voice notes, and what I learn in here for my boys will also help my 10 year old girl as she grows so thank you. Review left in episode eight, how to parent complex kids with ADHD or other different Oh, brilliant. Oh, thank you. Oh,
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gosh, I learned so much from that interview and that book. When I read that book, I really and I'm still using it now, and it's it. The big thing is just holding a vision of your child in your head, of something that they can be until they can own it themselves. And it's really just keeping faith. Mine is from Claire via an email on the website, I love listening to your podcast on my way home from work, you have managed to completely change my mindset from dreading the teen years ahead of me to actually seeing them as something to embrace and enjoy. I no longer jump into the defensive or protective mode every time a problem arises, but take a step back and try to encourage my teens to solve their own problems. This has already completely transformed my relationship with them. How wonderful, amazing, and it ultimately is really having a positive impact on them and their maturity and transformation into becoming amazing adults. Thank you so much. This is, this is the bread and butter, isn't it? It's just the communication, the ability to step back and not. Get too emotionally upset about him right now, we'll go to the old episode, and we'll talk about identity, and then we'll come back.
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They're trying on different different identities, because that's what they're doing. They're finding out who they are, and that's completely normal, yes, and I think it's our reaction to that that can be the problem, yes, as in many things, and
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they're trying.
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It's that they've started to understand that they have different social roles. Yes, you talked last time when we were talking about the empty nest syndrome, when I mentioned, you know, the roles that we play in life, and you said, Well, you could go deeper than that. So what are your values? Yes, and it's about how we can talk to our teenagers about not simply their roles, yes, because the, I think we'll come into this, this role thing, because they're important, actually, roles tend to, they can confine you. So once you say, I'm this, yeah, then what you're sort of saying is, you're not all those other things, yeah.
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I mean, it's this, is, yes, absolutely. I mean, it's a, kind of a complicated thing, really, in that. I mean, I think our identity is, is, is who we are when we're not the roles that we've been given. So we can take them as well. But, you know, we're a daughter, we're a son, we're a brother, a sister, we're a school child.
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We're, you know, whatever we we're a hockey team member. And they're really important, and they, you know, they really contribute to our whole identity, but they're not who we are. So who we are is when we are just ourselves. You know, what do you like inside? And that's, of course, a, you know, a work in progress. We do. We look at that our entire lives, but the teenage years are probably where we're exploring it the most, because we're suddenly, suddenly become aware of all these different facets and all these different social, like you said, social, social settings that we have, and we are confronted with, who the heck am I then? And I
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think that that's very, very difficult for teenagers if it goes unacknowledged. Yeah, they feel, they start feeling this disc, this discomfort with who they might be. They're trying to find something that makes them feel comfortable about themselves, but they don't know how to go about it. Yeah,
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if they don't first have that internal feeling of safety inside of kind of like, you know, at the age of 4050, you don't know who you are exactly, but maybe a kind of inkling that I'm okay. It's connected to self worth. You know that I'm okay as me, I'm all right. I know who I am. I know what my values are, maybe not specifically and verbally, because, you know, we're teenagers, it's hard. It's kind of quite abstract, but there's a sense of being able to be with yourself in a in a safe, comfortable way. I think that's the first step. And then, if we don't have that, then, then the roles that we put on, or the identities we take, they are sort of scrabbling around for for a feeling of safety. We want to belong. Where do we belong?
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How do we know? And that can be quite tricky, but it's also normal. It's also it's very
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normal. It's very it's a process that teens need to but I love what you said about that sense of self worth, because I think that's a role we can play as parents in. It's easy for us to get panicked and worried about who our teenagers are or who they're becoming, but we need to constantly come back to are we filling them with a sense of self worth. Are they?
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Are they? Are they aware that they're loved and they're decent people underneath whatever it is they're displaying on the outside?
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Yeah, and then the identities they pick, they're just like putting on hats. Then they just, they can put them, put them on, take them off. Yes, because they're their inner sense of worth is, isn't being rocked each time. Yes, but I think we also have to be careful. We touched on this quite a few episodes ago about giving our kids identities, and we do that often from the best place. Maybe it's banter in the family or or we're desperate to find something that they can do their thing. I think we talked about it ages ago, you know? Oh, great. You're the you're the netballer, you're the pianist, you're the academic one, you're the funny one, you're the you're the showman. And we, we love that sort of categorizing, and it's makes us feel feel a bit safer, and they feel noticed.
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It's nice, if there's a nice, but it can go, it can become a problem. When they then, okay, feel, yeah, okay, yeah. And they feel, well, I don't want to be the academic one today. I want to, or I don't want to be the show man, actually, I've got a stinking headache, and I don't want to be
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funny, or, for example, where, you know, this could happen later in life for him. But Bear Grylls, who I was listening to recently, who's the chief scout for the whole of the world, and he broke his back, and he was an outdoor adventurer, and he lay in the bed having an existential crisis, thinking, Wait, if I'm not those things, who am I? Who am I? And this is inevitable, obviously, because we all are made up of the various different roles we play in life. But right at the core of that is, you know, what are my values? What matters to me and how do I feel about myself? And those roles can trap you, if one day you break your leg, and then suddenly, my eldest
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was, you know, really good at playing music.
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And he was very explicit. He said, I don't want to be the music boy. I don't want that. I don't want that label. And he had seen, you know, other external things going on, but he ended up stopping because he didn't want that label. He didn't want to be, you know, conforming to that label.
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Interesting,
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yes. Now Les parrot, who's a professor of psychology, developed these five common ways in which teens demonstrate struggles with identity, seeking status symbols. So, you know, looking for clothes and possessions that give them a sense of positive affiliation, and we know that this is very common for teenagers. It's very normal, but it can be extreme, forbidden grown up behaviors, because that makes them feel that they can then be accepted by others, because they they think that by appearing mature, that they are something other than, perhaps what they are, rebellion. Many teens use rebellion as a way to show that they're different from their parents, and then to be accepted by their peers, idols.
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Some identify specifically with one person. We've all had somebody on our wall and and then cliques, you know, forming an identity which becomes the clique. So they are nothing without the clique. So I've told my girls to act like a magpie.
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Look around them and the things they find attractive. There's a reason you find them attractive.
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There might be things that you don't have yet in terms of personal traits or whatever it is, explore it. Don't think, oh, that if you're attracted to somebody we they used to call it Pash, where they the girls would be attracted to another girl who was older than them, and it was more that they were fascinated by somebody else. And it could be another boy, another girl, anybody. But let them explore that. It doesn't mean anything in particular. It means that they are curious, and they're trying to experiment. They're trying to explore their identity. And it's, it's a good thing. So I think we parents panic and think, oh, they they're showing signs. They're going to do this. Yes, no, they're just trying things out.
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Yeah,
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yeah. And the the more nonchalant we can be about them changing, and the more that's because that's a normal thing. Oh, you're this this week and you're that next week. And, okay, great, go for it. Have fun with that. That instead of, you know, reacting and going, Oh my God, what's what now kind of thing, then the less, the less they have to rebel, and the more they can have fun with it, because it is really an interesting time for them.
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And I have noticed that with all my kids, I have coached them without really knowing it about their identities. And you know, for example, one of them said once, oh, I think I'm seen like this, and I don't really want to be seen like that. How do I What do I do? And I said, Well, you could, you could represent yourself to the world. So, you know, we're now living in an era of social media, and that reflects back on us who we are.
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And so I said, Well, you could present your you can either try different clothes out to signal to people that you're different from the person that they might have thought you are. You can present different images on social media about yourself. You know, this is all about trying on different hats and showing signaling to other people that you are not stuck in that particular role, but it's also about how she sees herself. Yes,
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that's the key, isn't it? And it's this kind of like there's almost two parts to it, and there's the internal identity that we talked about before you know, how do you feel inside? Do you feel Do you feel good? Do you feel comfortable in your own skin? And then there's the external identity, which is the, you know what you're talking about now, the you trying on different hats. So what? What do you want to present outwards? But if you haven't got the, if you don't feel safe in your own skin, then then it's, it's hard to try on hats without it being Yes, problematic Yes,
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because if you don't actually have a fixed identity of any type, then every time, for example, if you spend time with other people, then you will try and become that other person. So there's a classic, I remember girlfriends who would start dating some boy, and suddenly their favorite hobby was hockey or and they'd buy everything, or they, you know, they suddenly, now they're windsurfing, and, trying it out, which is great, but then suddenly, yeah, you know, their new identity was entirely this, and then the relationship would end. And suddenly, you go, so how's the surfing? And they go, Oh, no, I'm not.
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We can, you know, give our kids identities with the best will in the world. And I've been aware of doing it myself, and I thought I was quite aware of not doing it. But my youngest boy is really sociable. He loves being hanging out with his mates, and so we've started to call him party boy in the house, just, you know, from a, I don't know, just a nice little nickname. And he thinks it's funny. And then I was sad.
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Be Aware like, Oh, I'm not sure that's a great name, because, you know, what if he doesn't want to be party boy, or what if he's, you know, wants to stay home, does he then feel that?
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I'm sure he doesn't read much into it. But it's just this idea that we can give labels without even realizing we're doing it and just being aware that, you know, it's fine to do it, but it doesn't, you can take it away as well, and
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so much of it lives about other people's expectations. And I remember going to university, and I was so excited about getting to university, I was the party girl. Everyone was coming back to my room, and it was just great fun. And I became known as that person. So for the first two terms, that was my identity.
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And then I thought, actually, I don't want to be this person.
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Yes, I can't fit that role. And my other daughters experience this too, and and suddenly you're not the person that they think you should be, and you get punished for it. And so it's about being brave enough to say, You know what, I'm not. I don't want to make myself into something that doesn't work for me and accepting that it's okay to be lots of different things, and people find it more it's the people outside who find it complicated, more complicated than the person inside who's reworking their personal co where
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are they going to hang out in the evenings? If you're not party girl, that's inconvenient, isn't it? I've done it with my daughter as well. Like she's amazing with animals. She's like the animal whisperer and the child whisperer, they all sort of flock to her. And so we've talked about that loads, and it's a lovely thing. And you can, we could, you know, explore that later in your life, if you want to, and do all these different things. And she's like, Yeah, I'm also really good at English, you know, and I could do that and that. And I, yeah, I came backed off immediately. Okay, then
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you notice it, and that's the great thing, because you're aware of it. And so I think what we need to do as parents is just be aware that when we try and say things to our kids, and it's all coming from a well meaning space, we're thinking of, what career can they have? What, you know, if you're great at this, you can do this, you know, back off a bit.
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And if you get that feedback, say, Ah, okay, sorry, what I've done is I've boxed you in there.
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You're also that, you're also that all
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you all these different things, and you might be something completely different next week. Go Yes,
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yes, and it's okay to experiment. You don't have to be anything in particular. Don't let other people. And it's really interesting one, because there, there's a case of a young man who went on YouTube because he was interested in getting followers, and he played his instrument and got no interest whatsoever. He
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was a classical string player. Wasn't a classical
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string it was really interesting. You
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know, I bet you would be. You were his one follower, weren't you? And then he decided, okay, that's not working. And so he started eating things with people watching, you know, what do you want me to eat? And people suddenly started watching him, amazing, exactly, exactly. And they were goading him and saying, you know, trying this, can you eat too much and and he's ended up being extremely obese, and his personality has completely changed, and he's quite offensive and unpleasant, obviously entertaining to people the but what's really interesting about it is that our personalities can morph. We get feedback from people, and if it's a feedback pushing and people someone in one direction, when they have a personality, they an identity that's not really settled yet. It can be quite negative. So it's always giving our teens this feedback, you know, their home environment, we have some control. We can give them positive feedback about the things that they're doing as as a human being, just, what is it about you as a human being that I love and just always, I love you? Yeah, I just love you. I love you, whatever you are. And personality is
00:23:34.279 --> 00:24:12.720
an interesting one as well, isn't it? Because we, you know, we, we used to think that personality was just something you were born with, and that was just, that's the end, but now we know that, or there's this, you know, research that it's, it's that's not how it works. It evolves, and it's, you know, actually, your personality can be a response to, you know, something traumatic that's happened in your life earlier. So the good girl could be just a response to something bad that's happened, that you felt you had to be this particular way as a child, and that evolves and stays as a habit for for years and years and years. But that's not actually how you were born.
00:24:09.900 --> 00:24:13.559
Interest, so it's a much more fluid thing.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:53.740
Yes, yes. And again, with our social media environment we have, we should really recognize that that can actually play a role with our teens. So if we want to help our teens, who may be struggling a little with this, once again, it's it's feeding back that they're loved and they're important for who they are, not anything, any particular role that they're playing for us, modeling healthy attitudes towards our own identity. So you know, yes, I'm a mother, but I'm so many other things, and being able to demonstrate to your your team, that actually it's okay to not want to try and be one person, yeah, but trying out different roles, yeah, can be a good thing, and
00:24:53.740 --> 00:24:58.779
that you're comfortable in your own skin. I think that's a really, really amazing lesson to teach our kids.
00:24:59.200 --> 00:25:07.740
Avoid making com. Comparisons between teens or your your children, yeah, because it we as we heard, it can be quite destructive or easy to
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:10.920
do, easy categories.
00:25:07.740 --> 00:25:15.180
And you're this, you're the funny one, you're the bright one, you're the Yeah, and none of it's set in stone. None
00:25:15.180 --> 00:25:22.579
of it set in stone. Yeah, if it doesn't work, if you try this outfit on, or you try this style of being a person, and it didn't work.
00:25:19.980 --> 00:25:57.220
Fine. Try something is because that was, that was the other thing. I got this sense that my kids felt that once they had been a certain way, that they really were being inconsistent if they weren't that way. And I said, and I said, Well, if they confront you about it, or if you even talk to people about it, just say, I'm a teenager. I'm supposed to change this is, this is my job. I'm supposed to be trying out this stuff. And I say, I, you know, when I had a whole group of girls around a table the other day, I just said, Girls, experiment. Try, try different clothes. It's great. I love that you've all got different styles. You know, do, because it's harder when you're older. Yeah, and
00:25:57.220 --> 00:26:02.940
it's the response that they get that is the tricky bit, isn't it? It's our response. And we don't like change. We don't like change.
00:26:04.740 --> 00:26:39.559
So just to wrap it up, I think we can really help our teens by telling them how identity works and that spending time figuring it out is healthy and normal and coming back to signs that they don't feel a strong identity. For example, if your teen is obsessed with designer clothes, you can tell them that you totally understand why it's important and why they feel the need to belong. Then tell them what other qualities you see in them, and maybe reinforce that they are so much more than just that image, and talk about the downside of trapping yourself as being just one type of person.
00:26:40.160 --> 00:28:31.099
Susie, have you read Philip Pullman's trilogy, His Dark Materials? No, so good. I actually played it in the car to the girls over many, many, many car journeys going in and out of school, and they both listened agape. And the reason I mention it is in the it's a three part book, and it's fantasy, but each human in the book has something called a demon, which is a physical manifestation of the person's soul, and it takes on the form of an animal that you can see. So I can see your demon, or anyone's demon, and it's a constant companion which reflects your inner self and your emotions. It can offer you advice and provide comfort, and it's a kind of part of your identity. And in childhood, they shape shift. So a child's demon might be a bird one minute, then a snake and then a fox, oh, wow, constantly changing, yeah. When they become an adult, their demon settles into a single animal form, and that represents their true character. And there was a great bit in the book where this man was hoping he was going to be a lion, and he turned out to be a mouse or something. And the disappointment that was involved in that. And I just thought, Gosh, that's so interesting. And it sort of really sums up this inner voice that we have, and this sense that when, when we're children, we could be like, Oh, I could be this, and I could be that, and yes. And actually, as teenagers, there's an awful lot of identity shifting, yes, right? And I just loved it, because it kind of gives a voice to that. Yeah, now we put it in animal form. It's, isn't it interesting? I think, just think it's a lovely concept, and there's a nice way of being able to put it outside ourselves and saying, imagine, and what, what demon would you be, right? So I have two bonus daughters, two teens. I've been through all this identity development, and it hasn't finished. No, well, yeah, I'm still figuring out more who I am. Good. You see, this is the point. It is, actually. But it's quite a big stage. Yeah, in the teen years, isn't it? And
00:28:31.099 --> 00:28:39.019
they go, they start when, when they become teenagers, you know, they don't really, there's no awareness of any of that is there. So it's like, I just am, and then suddenly, Oh, who am I?
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:44.920
It's not the same for all kids. No, for some kids, it's quite a dramatic change, and it keeps changing.
00:28:44.920 --> 00:29:24.079
So I remember my bonus daughters, when they were teenagers wearing clothes that horrified me and I wasn't their mum, so I had to sort of look on and think, oh no. And one of them went through a really big emo stage, which is that kind of depressing music and lots of black makeup and glaring at people, and, you know, another, and they both wear huge amounts of makeup and all these and I looked on being horrified. I'm not proud of it. I was just because I didn't know I was looking at it, going, Ah And yes, and I read about it and realized that it was just their mask, and they were trying on things. But I think when you're not tuned into it, it's just terrifying. Yeah,
00:29:24.079 --> 00:29:28.819
and teenagers get such a bad reputation because of that, certainly, yes. So
00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:34.940
to what extent have you seen a shift in your kids when they change schools?
00:29:31.460 --> 00:29:38.480
Because you also change from senior school then to college?
00:29:35.000 --> 00:29:38.480
You've had one go to university.
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:41.079
Have you seen much of a change?
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:41.079
Yeah,
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:47.799
that's a really interesting question. Actually, have I seen much of a change?
00:29:42.880 --> 00:30:01.200
Yes, kind of Yes, as changes, definitely changes, and also constants. So it's like the constants become bigger, like they it's almost like they flower who they were before was.
00:29:57.220 --> 00:30:27.799
Smaller, they've all become bigger in that they are more, sort of in themselves. So even though they're sort of trying out maybe different things, yes, they haven't sort of tried massively different trends in like on the external, I wouldn't say, But internally, they they've definitely developing, definitely my eldest, who's gone to uni? Yeah, definitely that.
00:30:20.599 --> 00:30:32.299
Yeah, who their mates with? I think is always interesting.
00:30:27.799 --> 00:31:06.720
Like, my eldest is always, seems to be, always, always drawn to the international students. Like he's really curious about the different ethnicities, and finds sort of likes that. And then that actually affects his identity. He seems, you know, we have to remind him that he, you know, he's, he's not from Sri Lanka, or he's not from even though that would be very cool and lovely, he's actually not, yeah, it's funny, but yeah, he's very he's probably more fluid than the others with his identity, but in a, in an but again, he's kind of got bigger. He's still himself.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:09.599
He's got, he's just got bigger.
00:31:06.720 --> 00:31:30.079
And, like, maybe they, maybe it's almost like a, I don't know, like a, an enemy type thing. You see feelers going out to different places. And you, you kind of try something out, don't you, and then you pull it back, or you, yeah, my, my, the my younger two, they're the same, but maybe less, to lesser an extent, they've kept their same friendship groups pretty much, right? I think has it?
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:33.799
Yes, but yeah, you can see it. I think,
00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:38.299
I think that's actually a big thing, if they've got the same friendship groups, and there's a continuum there.
00:31:38.299 --> 00:31:38.720
Isn't there,
00:31:38.720 --> 00:31:52.539
yeah? But they're pulling in new ones, and they, they look a bit different, and they, yeah, it's a really, really interesting one, because, you know what, what is identity anyway? Like, what is it? Is it?
00:31:48.339 --> 00:31:57.880
It's not our, just our external, obviously, but it's, it's our sense of self, isn't it? We talked about that last time.
00:31:55.539 --> 00:32:01.619
It's our sense of self. How solid is that? Do you feel comfortable in your own skin, like
00:32:01.619 --> 00:32:31.160
we talked about last Yeah. And I think that it will vary quite dramatically with different kids. And I've seen big changes, have you? I've seen big change, yes, and, and I think that's because one of my kids was, she's quite she's very studious, yeah, so you can imagine who that is, and she was sort of, I think she got perceived as being the nerdy person, and didn't want that as her persona. But you get stuck.
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:44.380
And I think as she's grown older, it, she suddenly realized that she's, you know, she'll go away to camp, and suddenly she's super popular, and everybody sees her in a different way. And it's a bit of a shock for her.
00:32:41.420 --> 00:33:31.400
Shock for her, because she's calling me, going, Mommy, I'm really like everyone wants, and it's because it's a mismatch with what she'd been told by her environment and and actually won't mind me saying this, she actually ended up in a relationship with a girl, and it just migrated into that, because I could see that she'd met her, and they were talking all the time, texting all the time, and I said to her, this feels like something different. It doesn't feel like just a friendship, and she was a bit higher. I don't know. I don't know. And and I just said to her, just so you know, I have no I've got no judgment. I don't care, but really care who you spend time with who you fall in love with, as long as you you're loved and you're cherished, and it's healthy for you. And it did. It evolved into a relationship, and it was the most beautiful, loving all that sort of stuff.
00:33:31.819 --> 00:33:47.500
And it's really interesting, because at that point, there started the questions, Oh, is she gay? And and we didn't do that. We just went, just, you know. And I said, Do you want to have a label for it or, you know? And she said, No, I don't.
00:33:47.740 --> 00:34:17.099
She said, I just think I fall in love with the person. Yeah, beautiful. And I thought, is a really interesting thing, because again, quite often we really feel like we need a box for things, and we want to say, Oh, yes, so you're by or you'll get whatever. And actually, since that relationship has ended, she's now interested in dating boys. And I just think, I think I'm so glad that we allowed the whole thing to just blossom and fluid. Yes, and it's, it's all been incredibly healthy, but it's that was just a moment in time,
00:34:17.099 --> 00:34:20.539
yeah, because otherwise she'd have had to go, Oh no, I'm not, like, a big announcement,
00:34:20.539 --> 00:34:41.139
that's the thing. So these whole, these big, oh, I am now this and making big announcements some, in some ways, it's about wanting to be important and noticed. And so you can actually look at it and say, what's what's beneath this? Is this as important? Is this because you want people to notice you? Yeah. And sometimes it is that. But actually, I think it's so important to just
00:34:41.139 --> 00:34:49.000
go, yeah, yeah. And it's, there's a difference, isn't there? And they massively overlap. But, you know, we have a social identity, don't we?
00:34:46.300 --> 00:35:02.519
Yes, that's the external, but it's also connected to ourselves, of course. But it's like, how do you appear? And that shifts and changes. And then there's your personal identity. How do you see yourself? How do you feel about yourself? And they they do overlap, but they are. Separate.
00:34:59.019 --> 00:35:42.039
Yes. And social identity, as we've banged on about a lot, is just super important for teenagers. It's, it's their capital, isn't it? It's like, how do you, how do you perceive me? And if you're, if you have a social identity based on a poor personal identity or a weak one, then that's then your social identity is suddenly super important and really vulnerable, yeah, and you're very aware of what people are thinking of you and your how they're judging you. And do I fit in? Do I belong that big? You know, build sense of belonging as a teenager, which is all part of identity. But if your personal identity is intact and you feel really good about yourself and everyone you know feel loved and seen and all of that, then you can play around more with your social identity. Yes,
00:35:42.099 --> 00:36:05.579
I love and that's really good summary of how important this own personal identity is. And if you've got a child who's really struggling socially, you know they're sort of desperately trying to fit in somewhere, we can build up their internal identity and how we see them and try and work on that, rather than because sometimes the friendships just don't click. Sometimes they're not in the and you
00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:39.199
can always tell, can't you if somebody, maybe, if somebody dresses in an extreme way, whatever that is, there's a difference, isn't there between you can you can just sense they're doing it to get attention, yeah, because they need attention. And there's, you know, there's no judgment in that. There's something, you know, they, maybe they, they need the attention for a valid reason, and there's something painful that they need to, you know, whatever, need to heal somehow, or they're doing it because they think it's fun and they just want they're loud and creative and weird. You know, there's a difference. There's a comfort in that, isn't? It feels comfortable, whereas the other one is a bit like, oh, not sure about this. Yes, they're different. And
00:36:39.199 --> 00:36:52.000
I also wanted to talk about one of my other daughters, because this is to do with the online environment. And what I found really interesting is this is the one who's left school and she's working and she now wants to go back to study.
00:36:52.000 --> 00:37:21.920
Yeah, so it's she there's been a big shift, yes. And she said to me, this is one of the best things I've ever done. I've stepped away from the whole school environment, the other people who I was socializing with and doing, you know, the way the school was set up, because the school setup wasn't working for her. Nothing wrong with the school just wasn't working for her. Yeah, and she's had a chance to work alongside adults, people of different ages, and just really think about what her priorities are.
00:37:17.460 --> 00:38:30.260
And it's been yes and meeting people who are different, and being able to pick and what the one reason I want to mention online is she has, you know, how we say, show me your your five best friends, and I'll tell you what kind of person you're going to be. She's picked two people online. One of them is a med med student, who, what she does online is she does study sprints, so because she has to do so much studying, so what she does is she has a YouTube channel. I think it's YouTube or me, I think it is or Tiktok or something where she literally says, right, I'm going to study in this at this amount of time, and we're going to start now, and she'll talk about this studying experience, and she'll have her camera on her the whole time. And my daughter does the same thing. She puts the camera on and she studies alongside this girl. Wow, it could because she admires this girl. She said, I think she's amazing. Yeah. How interesting is that? How have they found each other? Is it my daughter just found her and she's because, and I don't know this is the point. So what's interesting is, I want to say this because it's a really positive thing. So she has found someone online that she so her sister is like that already, but that's not the one. No, no, no.
00:38:30.260 --> 00:39:10.739
She wanted to find someone herself, right? So she's found someone online, yeah, who really inspires her, and she does study sprints with her, and then she'll stop. And she said, Right, we're both on a we're both on a break for 20 minutes or 10 minutes, I'm going back, and she films the whole thing so that she can show Yes. So number one, really positive. Number two, there's a guy called Dean something, and she shows me him all the time. She shared him with me, and he's a young man who is a Democrat, and he basically makes his money being on Tiktok debating Trump supporters or anybody. He says, you know, debate me, yeah, and, and she loves it. And she's, she spends the day at work going, I can't wait for the next debate.
00:39:10.739 --> 00:39:51.159
I'm gonna watch him. And she said, I've learned so much from it. And he's, and she said he's giving me faith that there are men out there who are really lovely young man. And, and again. And I thought, but you see what I'm saying. So I think we've got this sense that online is so toxic and so horrible. And I think what she's done is she says to me, I don't understand it, because if you look at mine, it's all, it's all funny cat videos and all. And I think it can be really, really dark and toxic, but it can also be positive. Yeah, yes. And she couldn't access those people in her immediate environment. And wanting to talk to those people, or wanting to follow those people wasn't cool. No, at the school she was at
00:39:51.159 --> 00:39:53.260
No. That's amazing.
00:39:51.159 --> 00:40:21.679
And the fact that she stepped out of school, I mean, for her identity, that must be big, because, you know, she's huge school kids, you know, you don't. Remember before you went to school? Do you that is your and there's a there's the part of identity, which is role. We have roles, don't we? They become part of our identity if we're not careful. But they're not who we are. They're our roles. So being a school kid or a college kid is an i is a role that becomes your identity. So if you suddenly stop doing that, then she's had to consciously or unconsciously think, Well, who am I? Then, Yeah, amazing. And
00:40:21.679 --> 00:41:12.840
she told me, she's told me quite often, Oh, I feel like my prefrontal cortex is developing. But here's another and this is here's another one that really interested me. I've been reading a book which I recommend, and it's called how to raise a healthy gamer. And the man who wrote, I forget his name right now, but he said what was really interesting was in lockdown, a lot of gamers were fine. And he said the reason for that is people in gaming communities have friends who are gamers, and those people are separate from other things in their life. So if you have a break, and he said, I've had breaks in my life where I've gone from school to college, college to university, University to, you know, he fell off the cliff and he dropped out and then came back again. But he said throughout all of that, the game of friends have stayed.
00:41:12.840 --> 00:41:18.119
Yes, I can see that, because it's a different relationship, and that also is very interesting. Yeah,
00:41:18.119 --> 00:41:33.260
yeah, no, I can totally see that healthy gaming book sounds good. I need to read that a bit late for me, but maybe never too late. But yeah, I recognize that the gaming like the gaming community, is a constant, yeah, and that's part of it. Then it's part of your identity if you want it to be Yeah. What's
00:41:33.260 --> 00:42:29.780
also interesting is my one of my bonus daughters, since she left university and went to work, the people she was hanging out with at school and at university, there were times when I thought, Oh, interesting choice of friend. I'm not sure that I'm that keen, but yeah, I welcomed them into my home. We took them on holiday all this stuff. And it's so interesting watching them evolve as individuals, and the relationship they had with their parents and how they've turned out. And there's one particular person. He has not evolved. He's not grown as a character. And I can see her now saying, like, that's that relationship isn't working anymore for me. You know, she was living this life, this fun life, and wild and and she's like, but he hasn't grown up. He hasn't changed. His identity hasn't changed and grown. It's stuck. And he's now at work, getting blind drunk, you know, falling over out of cabs and things. And he's in his mid 20s, yeah. So, so it continues, it continues to evolve, yeah.
00:42:29.780 --> 00:43:01.199
I mean, I can relate to that in the falling out of my old age, not falling out of no but that we, that we, that we, that we change at different rates, and we develop. And you know when, as you get older, you know, so you look around and sometimes you think, gosh, they seem much older than me. Yes, when did that happen? Or they seem younger? It changes. But for teenagers, it's it's so concentrated in those few years, isn't it? But the sense of self is, is always at the root of all of it. But
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:19.679
I also think I've said this to my girls time and time again when they've said to me, how do you know you're with them right, with the right person? And I said, it's easy to fall in love. The hardest thing is to be with someone who continues to grow with you. Yes, and that's just something that's you just have to keep talking and growing together. And it's true, yeah, it's really challenging and
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:24.320
growing in a way that is the same way, yeah? Oh, not necessarily same way, but one that's compatible,
00:43:24.318 --> 00:43:29.958
yeah. Anyway, that's it. Yeah. I don't have much else to say. Do you have anything more
00:43:30.500 --> 00:43:36.500
to have anything profound and interesting or stupid? I have plenty of that, but I won't bore you with those
00:43:38.179 --> 00:43:40.239
bits, right?
00:43:38.179 --> 00:43:53.739
Well, if you have any more comments about identity, questions about your own teenagers identity, and how it's developing, and whether we can do anything to help. Let us know it's teenagers untangled@gmail.com I have just thought of something. Tell me we
00:43:53.739 --> 00:44:44.619
had a I had a conversation with them, the my two younger ones, and we we gave feedback to each other as to how we saw each other. It was so interesting. So me and my daughter were very happy to discuss stuff like that, and my son was happy to listen. He didn't offer as much as we did, but that's very much identity, how we how we see you. And I think that also opens up the can of you know, there isn't, we don't have one identity. It's a perspective, isn't it? It's hundreds, how I see myself, isn't how you see me and all of that and all, you know, million things that we try on, but that's that was a really, I can recommend that. That was a really fun game. But being really, we have an honest, you know, we have an honest culture at home anyway. But, you know, giving actual feedback, this is how when you do that, that's why I do it. This is how I see you.
00:44:41.679 --> 00:44:44.619
And it was super interesting.
00:44:45.039 --> 00:45:05.699
That is fascinating. And, yeah, you know what it's made me think of is it's made me think of a friend of mine telling me about a party she'd had where there was a massive group of friends and they decided to play a game where one person had to stand up and. Behave in a way that everybody else would recognize as someone in that room. Wow, yeah, it didn't go
00:45:05.880 --> 00:45:11.820
down safe space for that. I listened to it. Yeah, you have to be super
00:45:11.820 --> 00:45:22.699
careful, and you have to have built up a really safe space exactly so family where you all Yeah, we can say to each other about your you know, you don't like conflict, or you This is how you were put yeah and yeah. No, that's true.
00:45:22.699 --> 00:45:23.900
No. Good game. No. I
00:45:26.480 --> 00:45:44.920
love that brilliant tip. Brilliant tip. So if you want to, if you found this useful, please send it to at least one other person you could like and review. Thank you very much. That would be amazing. It's actually the only really useful way of marketing.
00:45:41.920 --> 00:46:02.159
Because I don't, yeah, you know, when people are searching on the podcasts, that's one of the ways they find Yes, find the podcast, other than the fact it was in the Times newspaper recently, yeah, as one of the top parenting podcasts, and then in the week magazine, yes, I know people are sending me and I just say, Oh, I didn't know. No idea.
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:12.840
No one told me anyway. Thank you very much for keeping your eyes and ears open and letting me know about these things. And if you want to contact Susie, Susie,
00:46:13.860 --> 00:46:17.159
www. Dot, amindful hyphen life.co.uk.
00:46:18.420 --> 00:46:22.460
That's the really stable way of getting hold of her. She is on social media, but she's really good.
00:46:22.460 --> 00:46:24.619
She kind of pops in and off, not there,
00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:27.800
but website is selfie is yes,
00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:41.619
yes, and she's open to questions about anything, whether it's corporate or individual, absolutely mindfulness or anything else or anything else. That's it for now. Big hug and have
00:46:41.619 --> 00:46:43.239
a great week. Yeah, goodbye for now you.
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