March 25, 2025

135: Adolescence: Help for parents with the core themes. How to discuss and connect with our kids

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The mini-series, Adolescence, is a global hit, topping Netflix charts in 71 countries and amassing 24.3 million views in its first four days.

It's sparked a global conversation about parenting, masculinity, and the impact of social media on young people. It's brilliance rests on holding up a mirror to everyone in society, showing us the complex factors that cause toxic ideas to take root.

When I started this podcast I set out to create somewhere that is a safe space for us parents to explore the challenges we face, judgement free. The links below are all referenced in the episode offering tools to think about, and unpack, our own parenting and how best to connect with and support our own kids.

BLOG: What to think about before handing your child a phone: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/blog/mobile-phones-social-media-and-online-access-what-i-would-do-if-i-had-my-teens-or-tweens-again/

BOOK: When you lose it by Roxy and Gaye Longworth

EPISODES:

Screen time: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/screen-time-for-tweens-and-teens-the-latest-on-what-works-and-what-doesnt/
Andrew Tate and the manosphere: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/role-models-andrew-tate-misogyny-red-pills-and-the-manosphere/
Sexting and nudes: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/parenting-tips-4-protecting-your-tweenteen-from-doing-something-illegal-with-their-phone-camera-aka-sexting-also-how-and-why-you-might-give-your-teen-an-allowance/
Porn culture: episode https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/pornography-why-talking-to-your-teen-about-it-is-more-important-now-than-its-ever-been-and-great/
Andrew Hampton interview: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/114-friendships-frenemies-and-boy-banter-parenting-our-teens-through-the-relationship-pitfalls/
Masculinity vaccinations: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/98-boys-emotions-masculinity-vaccinations-and-online-influencers/
Talking with boys: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/masculinity-and-positive-ways-of-supporting-our-teenage-boys-an-interview-with-mike-nicholson-from/
Bigorexia and bodybuilding: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/feeding-your-teen-control-issues-and-bigorexia/
Looksmaxxing: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/112-boys-looks-and-masculinity-on-social-media-the-hard-and-soft-of-looksmaxxing/
Staying connected: (second part of this episode) https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/2-alcohol-how-to-discuss-it-and-staying-connected-should-we-be-letting-our-teenagers-drink-and-w/
Male friendships and the masculine mask: https://www.teenagersuntangled.com/boy-friendships-and-supporting-our-sons-in-forming-positive-friendships-also-what-the-we-sho-1/

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I don't have medical training so please seek the advice of a specialist if you're not coping.

My email is teenagersuntangled@gmail.com
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www.teenagersuntangled.com
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Susie is available for a free 15 minute consultation, and has a great blog:
www.amindful-life.co.uk

02:35 - Nuggets

06:16 - Listener Feedback and Podcast Impact

08:47 - Deep Dive into "Adolescence" Series Themes

13:23 - Online Culture and Teenage Privacy

18:51 - Sexting and Digital Challenges

22:24 - Masculinity and Male Role Models

27:08 - Emotional Intelligence and Male Rage

32:22 - Online Influences and Counteracting Negative Narratives

39:56 - Community Support and Male Emotional Health

45:46 - Community-based solutions for supporting teenagers

WEBVTT

00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:16.260
Susie, hello and welcome to teenagers untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teenage years where no question is a bad question. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, parenting coach, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters.

00:00:16.539 --> 00:00:31.059
Hi there. I'm Susie Asli, mindfulness coach, mindful therapist and musician and mother of three teenagers, two of them are twins. Actually, that's not true anymore. My eldest turned 20 stop. He did.

00:00:26.829 --> 00:00:35.979
Yeah, so I can't say that anymore. So mother of two teenagers and a 20 year old, there you go. Very

00:00:36.259 --> 00:01:06.000
good, very good. I asked Susie to watch the Netflix series adolescent because I really want to unpack what's in it and give parents some pointers on episodes that will help you if you want more support, because we've actually talked a lot about some of the issues that are covered. Yeah, we have over the years and so And actually, if you're coming fresh to this podcast, or you've only been listening recently, there are quite a few that you might have missed or that you won't be aware of so briefly.

00:00:59.619 --> 00:01:28.579
Adolescence is a British TV mini series that's recently come out, and it centers on a 13 year old school boy named Jamie who was arrested for murder of a female classmate. It's not a whodunit, it's a why done it. And each of its four episodes was shot in one continuous take, which is, you know, made amaze. It's just amazing. But there are other things that we're going to talk about, so we're not going to talk about the actual filming or any of that stuff. Obviously,

00:01:28.640 --> 00:01:34.219
it will break you, just warning I am still I finished watching it yesterday.

00:01:31.939 --> 00:01:45.099
I binge watched it. Did you watch it on your own with your I did. I watched on my own. My kids want to watch it, but timing wise, I wanted to watch it for today, so, and we couldn't fit that in. So I watched it on my own, and they I, we want to watch it together.

00:01:46.120 --> 00:01:55.599
It broke me. I watched, I finished watching it yesterday, and I floods the tears. Ran into both of them and hugged them, and they think I'm very weird.

00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:57.219
It's it's harrowing, it's brilliant, and it's harrowing. I

00:01:57.219 --> 00:02:29.960
watched it with my younger daughter, and in the within the first five minutes, I was sobbing, yeah. And actually, it was really good to watch it with her. We watched three back to back. I did two Yeah, and then we watched the next one the next day. And my daughter, who had sat her exams, when she'd finished, she said, right, I'm going to watch adolescents. And I said, maybe choose something fun. Maybe not that. But she came home saying, Yeah, I've watched all of them. Yeah? You can't stop Yes, this is it, because it's so engaging. So yes, if you haven't watched it, do yes, if you don't want to, then this might be Yeah.

00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:33.800
It may leave a dark cloud over your head for the following days.

00:02:35.419 --> 00:02:39.318
So right, let's talk something more cheery. How about some

00:02:39.319 --> 00:02:55.120
nuggets? Yeah, I got a cheery nugget while cheerier nugget because I just thought it would be a nice contrast. And so I've heard this from other parents, and I think maybe it's particularly a boy thing, but maybe it's not in my house. It is, and it's washing

00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.479
clothes, washing because actually, not just boys, no

00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:04.439
but putting putting stuff in the in the washing basket? No, I'm sure it's not, but

00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:07.680
they can't be able to hang it up.

00:03:07.919 --> 00:04:03.718
No, no, no, that they need washing. Okay? And it goes into the washing basket when I don't think it's worthy of a wash, but they do, because they obviously don't wash stuff, so they don't realize what a pain in the butt that is. And so we've had conversations, yeah, but and he's washing and he's washing, and look, it's got that on it. So I get them all out again, back in the cupboard. So we go backwards and forwards a little, and then one particular hoodie had a mark of some food that was spilled down it. But it was only one little mark. The rest was fine. So I said, right, I'm going to show you how to sponge a little mark out. And he's like, so we went into the kitchen with a sponge and some soap or whatever, and I showed him how to do it super easy. And he's like, I always smell. I will smell. So then I made him sniff it, and we agreed it didn't smell anymore. I love and it went in the air and cupboard, which we are fortunate to have.

00:04:00.419 --> 00:04:07.139
And next day, it's, is as good as new? Yeah, that was my lesson of the week.

00:04:07.199 --> 00:04:09.360
I love that.

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And, you know, I have it, I have a simple test, and it's basically, has, is it marked?

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Does it smell? If it's neither.

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It goes back in the wardrobe, and the marks, like you say, it's to clean it off. And my husband has even started, because, of course, during winter he would wear a t shirt underneath his shirt. He started just putting the shirts back on the hanger. And I've shown you, know, I've got a steamer. You can just steam the creases out.

00:04:33.860 --> 00:04:37.040
Are there any creases? Perfect?

00:04:33.860 --> 00:04:38.240
Really? Shut the cuts down on the washing. I think

00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:46.779
the next step, Susie went on. We switched up. And I said, these ones I don't think need washing. And if you want those ones washed, then you're very welcome to do I don't think it's the machine.

00:04:46.779 --> 00:05:58.660
He's like, Oh, okay, absolutely brilliant. I love it. Mine's a happy one. And I've talked a bit about Priya Parker before, the woman who talks about gatherings, and I had been trying to switch up my socializing. Because I realize I have not been meeting up with people as much as I used to, and I don't want to do big dinner parties like they're just arduous. There's too much work involved. My husband doesn't do enough, and it's no and so I've started doing drinks, and the drinks are six to eight, so I've been very explicit with it. And I said, please do not bring anything. And what I do is I just put some little sneaky snack things out on little boards or bowls, just olives and maybe some meats and some cheese, anything like that, really simple stuff. And I and then I just say, we're just going to get together, and then eight o'clock, you're leaving. I love that it works so well. But, and actually, one person said, This is my favorite way to socialize, because, you know, you get older and you think, I don't want to be out all night and I just want to go and have fun with my neighbors, go and chat with them, and we, we you can also circulate. The one thing I hate about dinner parties is you're stuck. And it's not that you don't well.

00:05:58.779 --> 00:06:16.560
You may not want to sit next to that person, sometimes not but it also it's just that you think, Oh, I'd love to, I haven't had the chance to chat to them. But what happened was we all circulated. Everybody just naturally chatted with different people. And I learned all sorts of things about what was going on, what people thought, and just loved it. So I'm going to be doing that a lot.

00:06:16.620 --> 00:06:31.160
I love that. That's brilliant. I'm going to borrow that I have tried that in the past and said, I'm not, I'm not tired. I really just want to see you guys. Yes, I'm not going to tidy up and I'm not going to feed you. So eat before you come. I will have a bag of crisps and some wine. Please come. Yeah,

00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:57.579
and it's just, and also you can keep it in one room. Yeah. So people were turning up and migrating to the kitchen. No, no, we're all sitting in this room, yeah? And I put some lemons on the same Sicilian level lemons that had green leaves. I put them on the middle of the the, you know, coffee table, so that it made looked a bit more pretty. Some candles just perfect. So, yeah, that's my by eight, bye, bye at eight. And in fact, I was really helped by one of them. The lady stood up and said, right, everybody, eight o'clock. Off we go. Fantastic. They

00:06:57.579 --> 00:07:00.120
were going down the pub together. They will go down to,

00:07:03.060 --> 00:07:15.839
most likely, no, actually, funnily enough, all of them, because they've got teenagers, they were like, oh, such and such, at home doing spaghetti bolognese, so I'd better get back in time to eat it. Yes, so the teenagers were being left, you know, to prepare the supper. Yeah,

00:07:15.839 --> 00:07:21.019
interesting. That didn't move on my weekend. Mine was having a poker night in the kitchen, and

00:07:21.319 --> 00:07:25.939
I was asked, no way I love it. Do you have any reviews?

00:07:25.999 --> 00:07:38.418
I do. I really love your podcast, and have recommended it at least 10 times to fellow parents. It's given me understanding, patient, tools, calmness. I feel much better equipped, and my relationship with my kids is just deepening.

00:07:38.538 --> 00:07:44.139
I also dread the teenage years, much less, even though I'm already melancholic about them not needing me in the same way.

00:07:44.439 --> 00:07:51.759
Finally, I have become an addict to the podcast, even though my kids are not even 11 yet. Wow.

00:07:47.619 --> 00:08:00.218
But EG, everything to do with being connected helps at every stage, and I wish I would have had the same knowledge and calm when they were even smaller. So thank you for all that wonderful research and input. Oh gosh.

00:08:00.218 --> 00:08:01.199
Thank you very much. That

00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:40.220
is so wonderful. And I have been talking to quite a few parents who said, Oh well, I'll need your podcast soon. And I go, actually, you might want to start now, because I think the sooner we're prepared, yeah, the easier it is. Not that it's ever easy, but, and this one was from Tara. I listened this morning on the way from school drop off to my client's house. And this was response to the oh, it was the one I did with my daughters about skin care obsessions. And she said, I'll be listening with my tween again when she returns from camp, understanding the why, thinking about wanting to fit in and also something they can control, is very thought provoking and eye opening something I hadn't considered.

00:08:40.639 --> 00:08:48.220
Love hearing your girl's perspective on things and the reminder to me to be non judgmental. I'm so bad at it, aren't we all,

00:08:48.220 --> 00:08:52.779
Oh, that was a that was a double whammy. There wasn't it. I'm so bad at being non judgmental, having

00:08:52.779 --> 00:08:58.840
a judgment, judging yourself. Reminders in this are always great. Thank you as always. Oh, I love that.

00:08:58.840 --> 00:09:36.200
Thank you so much. By Facebook, was lovely. So let's go back to our topic for today. In the Guardian, which is a newspaper here, Lucy Mangan stated that adolescence was the closest thing to TV perfection in decades, and there had been calls for the series to be screened in Parliament and schools to counter misogyny and violence against women and girls. So it's really interesting, but the writers have gone on record saying they wanted to look in the eye of male rage and examine the influence of public figures such as Andrew Tate on boys. But I think that's just one aspect of it. I mean, it's obviously a main aspect of it, but there were so many things to unpack, didn't you think?

00:09:36.200 --> 00:09:43.240
Yeah, totally. And I hadn't realized when I watched it that the father in the series is, is, is he the producer, the writer?

00:09:44.019 --> 00:09:47.019
Yes, yeah. I think he's one of the writers.

00:09:47.200 --> 00:09:49.179
It was also produced by Brad Pitt,

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yes, yes. And it was the catalyst, I guess, or the inspiration behind it was murders in the in the news of women or teenagers. By men in opposite ends of the country, and he just freaked him out so much that he realized that we needed to talk about it,

00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:16.440
and to put it in context, we have a knife crime disaster here, because I've also sat through an Old Bailey case with my daughter.

00:10:14.100 --> 00:10:19.139
When I went there, I said, I want a murder case, because I did. I didn't want a rape case.

00:10:19.379 --> 00:10:54.220
And it was four, no five boys in the dock. One of them was 13, and it was the result of a murder by stabbing. And the boy who was 13 wasn't the person who wielded the knife, but the way that the law works in the UK is they if you are part of the group, you're also culpable, right? So it was horrific, because his family was sitting behind us, and this little boy kept looking up at his mom, and I just it was heart rending. So I think it's, there's, there's the knife crime side of it, and the availability of knives and the misogyny that leads to boys stabbing girls.

00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:58.240
So I think just powerful and toxic. Yeah,

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I thought one of the most revealing points was that Jamie, who was the boy who stabbed the girl, kept insisting, I didn't do anything wrong. Yes, he didn't say I didn't do it.

00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:13.980
Oh, interesting.

00:11:10.500 --> 00:11:13.980
Yes. So in his mind,

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he and he also I, I'm not sure I'm going to get the words right, but he actually said there are a lot of other guys who would have touched her and I didn't, yes,

00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.240
he did say that, right? That wasn't, that was later, isn't it? Yes. So in

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his mind, he's, he's like, I didn't do anything, you know, just taking a girl's life, or

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he could have just been panicking, like, I think we can do that, don't we get caught red handed, I didn't do it, yes, but he didn't say

00:11:38.178 --> 00:11:39.859
I didn't do it.

00:11:38.178 --> 00:12:40.178
He said I didn't do anything wrong. Do anything wrong. That's true. Yeah. Isn't that interesting anyway? So what I one of the things I thought was really stood out to me, and actually hasn't been talked about a lot, and we'll go through all lots and lots of different things, but I thought the the sister. So the sister was called Lisa, and she was older than him, and there was this moment where the mother turned to the sister, and she was trying to sort of talk to her about this boyfriend that she's clearly been seeing, and she was sort of like, How's it going with him? And the daughter held the phone to her chest and said, It's none of your business. And the mother just went, Oh, okay, or something like that. So she didn't pry, she didn't push on that. And I thought, Gosh, that's so interesting, because I think all of these things, if you look at any series like this, they're put in for a reason. And I think what that was demonstrating was the extent to which that was normal for that family, that whatever the children were doing online was not their parents business, yes,

00:12:40.659 --> 00:12:52.539
yeah. And it's such a hard line to to, what's the expression? What is that such a hard space to navigate? Isn't it, how much you ask and how much you respect privacy? It's just,

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it's that's why I wanted to bring it up so difficult. And I think this is what parents really struggle with. At what point do you say, well, that's your personal space, and it's not my business to pry At what age does that happen? I think this is stuff you really have to think about and to navigate once they've got a phone or they've got and Jamie, when you open his door and you look inside, he's got all the equipment set up in his room, so he's got full access.

00:13:17.100 --> 00:13:23.779
His room is not a big room, and it's quite a big unit that he's got there that's dominating his life, but it's behind a closed door.

00:13:23.840 --> 00:13:28.639
Yes, yes, which became absolutely normal during COVID. Absolutely normal

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during COVID.

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And I think a lot of us who've got teenagers, not the people with tweens, so much, because hopefully they weren't sitting behind closed but it but it still happened. I mean, I you know, they're seeing kids in primary schools who've been affected by this. We were handing them, they were they

00:13:42.159 --> 00:13:51.519
were doing their lessons, some of them, the ones who had online lessons. Not all schools did that, but they needed private space because everyone was in a different place. Oh, let's put it in your room if it wasn't already there.

00:13:51.519 --> 00:13:51.700
Yeah,

00:13:52.240 --> 00:14:31.279
yeah. So I think we do have to, that's one of the things we actually really have to think about, is to what extent is our child's time spent online their own. I'm not a fan of sneaking. I'm not a fan of monitoring in the way that some parents do, because I think that will create a disconnection, and I did, but I did say to my kids when they were younger that I can at any time, check your phone. And I did that to say to them, you know, you need to be careful about what you're doing online. But it was more to do with having conversations about what they were seeing and doing.

00:14:27.740 --> 00:15:08.159
And so my goals are very open, if they if they get messages. I mean, my daughter, when she was really quite she'd only had her phone for a short while, and the boy sent her a picture of him, just his torso, yeah, wasn't, you know, wasn't rude or anything. But she went, Oh, look at what he sent me. And and I just said to her, so how does that make you feel? Why do you think he sent that picture? And so we've always had a real kind of okay, what do we think about this? Yeah. And so if they see nasty messages, or they see people saying things, we it's more of a space to just say. So what? Yeah, you know, how do you navigate this and what do? What would I do in a one to one setting if you saw something like that or spoke like that in front of you?

00:15:08.220 --> 00:15:21.919
Yeah? And also, if you show you can show me anything. I mean, I won't, I won't be upset or angry. You can show me anything I was left afterwards feeling. And I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling, oh, my goodness. What have we done?

00:15:22.220 --> 00:16:18.720
What have I done? What have I not done? How? How can we go back in time and and because I'm sure in the future, we'll look back at this time where we just gave them access, free access, and go, What the heck? And I'm left going, yikes. I think my kids are okay with it. I don't think they have experienced anything awful, but I don't know that for sure, because I, to be honest, I don't know what they're looking at. I mean, I have a I think I have a rough idea, but actually, if I'm brutally honest, I don't, and they are on those ridiculous things. And I have a son who gained a lot. It frightened me, and it made me there's not a lot I regret, but I've actually said this to my kids. If I could go back in time, one one thing for parenting, I would I would be much. I would be different around gadgets. I would 100% and I that doesn't feel very nice, actually, and

00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:27.259
I think that's mirrored by parents across the world. And I, I was quite, quite careful with my older daughter.

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And I was very vigilant about what she was I wouldn't let anything in people's rooms.

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Everything had to be downstairs, all that stuff. But then lockdown happened. Yes, exactly.

00:16:36.919 --> 00:16:59.679
And, and she actually said to me, have you noticed that you're more lax with my sister and and actually, I was really grateful that she said that to me. And she also regularly says to me, can you monitor my things? She's 18. She's still saying, Could you So, for example, just she was yesterday, she said to me, Mommy, can you put another screen time over timing? Yeah.

00:16:59.679 --> 00:17:11.819
Can you can you control? Can you control how much time on this map coming? Because she knows that it's really, really difficult, but that also doesn't, doesn't actually answer what she's seeing. No,

00:17:11.819 --> 00:17:19.259
it does almost like there's two different things, isn't it? And obviously, the more you're on it, the more likely you are to see something that's unhelpful or not great.

00:17:19.740 --> 00:17:24.200
But the amount of time you spend on it and what you're looking at can be quite separate,

00:17:24.200 --> 00:17:52.779
and that's the important thing. So when I did the screen time episode, what became really clear is It's not how much time you spend on these things, it's what you're doing while you're on them, and that's the tricky thing. So even with gaming, it's so interesting, I saw a conversation where people were saying, Oh, well, there's a guideline on the games the age that they're supposed to be using. You should be following that. And actually, all the parents are going well. And I, when I read the game a book about raising a healthy gamer, he said, That's not the thing.

00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:59.680
It's at what you need to be thinking about is how addictive is the thing that they're using, and who are they speaking to?

00:17:56.259 --> 00:18:01.980
How? Who are they accessing? Who are they accessing as well?

00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:51.519
Yeah, so it's not just he said you could be doing, you know, stars and flowers and rainbows and things, and it could be really damaging them, yes. So, you know, this is but I think the main thing is we are having to navigate. So I put this in a blog. So if anybody wants to read my blog about what you should do before you actually give someone a phone, it's all in there, and it's really long, because there was so much to talk about. But I think we have been presented with the most appallingly difficult parenting conundrum that's ever been known. I'm really sorry, but I just think that I've said this time and again, we are not being given instruction on how to do this. We're being judged and falling short totally and and it's and we're in a bind because, because we want our kids to be social, we want our kids to have access to society, and yet we can't win either way.

00:18:51.579 --> 00:19:00.160
No. And I actually remember during COVID going, why didn't you go and game? You'll catch up with your mates. Go and go and games. Yes, he's gaming.

00:18:57.640 --> 00:19:00.160
Oh my

00:19:01.660 --> 00:19:54.940
god, right? I want to talk about another thing. So one of the other things that, again, may have gone a bit below the radar was the thing that happened before him going and stabbing. Is it Katie? Katie was that she had shared nudes that had gone around the school. So she shared them with one boy. He'd pass them around the school. And it was, it was as a result of this that this ended, it ended up in that particular situation, right? So we'll unpack a bit of that. But the issue is, there's a whole new culture that a lot of parents are not aware of. And there was that brilliant book by Roxy and gay Longworth when you lose it, and I've recommended it before in the nudes episode, and it's worth reading. She's now quite active on social media, Roxy Longworth, and she's trying to get more sort of in that space to help parents and kids.

00:19:55.299 --> 00:20:41.980
And the pressure to start sending news happens very, very young and. If your child has a device that has a camera on it, there's a chance that someone will access them and try and get them to send a nude and and they will not have the emotional mental understanding of what the implications could be, which is why, before you hand them with anything with a camera, you need to have that conversation and my with my kids, I was absolutely hard line. Hard line about very few things, but my hard line was no nudes, nothing, nothing ever and if you get to this into a situation where you completely in love with somebody, you think, I want to send something, it has to be completely unidentible so that you can stand back from it and say, That's

00:20:42.039 --> 00:20:45.160
not me. Yes, that's good advice. Or print it out and hand

00:20:46.180 --> 00:20:49.599
it, or just, or just show them in the place.

00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:51.819
Yeah, this is the weird thing.

00:20:49.599 --> 00:21:04.259
So we've gone, we've gone down this rabbit hole of, oh, it's so much better. Our kids are on our rooms, but they're going to experiment, yeah, of course. So, so we're just, we're just putting it in them in a vulnerable position where this stuff is being uploaded onto the internet, and then you can't get it down. Yeah. And

00:21:04.380 --> 00:21:14.339
then the then the problematic bit of the misogyny, and that's almost allowing it or encouraging it. It just is a ticking bomb, isn't it? Yes.

00:21:14.519 --> 00:22:24.920
And I've I was when my kids were in junior school, I remember someone coming into the school to say, we need to talk with the parents about nudes and the culture behind this and that, you need to understand that if your child demands a nude like boy, if you were a boy and he asks for a nude, he's asking for what is considered to be pornography, child pornography, and he should never have any of this on his device, all of this stuff. And there were some dads going, Yeah, but, you know, normal boys would be boys, so that's what they're trying to tackle. So it's actually, it's got to come from all the adults around them, as well as, yes, have been normalized in the community, that this is not accepted, not okay, like a hard line is important there, yeah, and it has to be, and it's never one and done, is it? You can't say don't do this. I mean, I regularly talk about it. And my daughter, when she went up to senior school, she said they came in and then and they talked about this. I'm just, I want to say that schools are trying to do things, yes. So they had a talk about it. And she said she called me up, and she said, Mommy, I looked around the room when they said, This is considered, you know, child pornography. And you could see by the people's faces how many of them had actually been sexting, like foods and things and

00:22:24.920 --> 00:22:34.700
that? How awful for the kids, I mean, how awful for them, because they, you know, they're just mucking about, and it's fun and it's flirty and it's, you know, we've talked about this before, haven't we, you know, I'll show you yours.

00:22:34.700 --> 00:22:43.960
You show me mine behind the bike sheds. But it's a totally just the same. That's the safe go, do that. Oh, there's CCTV camera.

00:22:46.299 --> 00:23:04.619
Oh, you're so right, yeah. And actually, Jamie, when he was asked about her, he said she's not my type 13. He said she's not my type she's too flat. And that, to me, was very indicative of the porn.

00:22:59.380 --> 00:23:25.579
Yes, access to porn, because 30, you know, come on, what are you expecting? Yes and and for him to be saying that she wasn't his type. And it's really interesting, because I saw there's a website called everyone's invited.uk which is the thing that started the metoo movement. And on that, they say there are 1600 primary schools across the UK who have said that there's a rape culture there.

00:23:26.960 --> 00:23:34.640
Yeah, gosh, so we and so we have to start early, we have to be regular. We have to talk about these things. But it's not new.

00:23:34.700 --> 00:24:06.359
So this is when I was at school, and I'm very old. I was, my parents tried to put me in the local school, senior school when we moved to this Lincolnshire village, and I took a very brief look around it and said, I'm not going to that school. And my reasoning was, and my parents were really annoyed. They thought I was being uppity about it, but I didn't like the fact they had no uniform that the kids were talking to the teachers in their with their first names, and it just felt unsafe to me. It didn't seem like there were enough rules.

00:24:06.359 --> 00:24:34.940
And I liked rules. I didn't feel safe and and I was, I was told by several kids who were going to that school later on, you know, one girl got pinned against a wall and a boy exposed her breasts. There were boys bringing their penises out in in class. God, you know. And you just listen to this, and you think, Oh, my goodness, this is not new. This happens in situations where we don't provide a moral and a controlled environment where you can socialize kids and say, this is we don't do this, yeah.

00:24:35.000 --> 00:24:52.599
And the consequences that the teachers can can bring now a very diluted, aren't they, because there's now a culture of, you know, gonna my dad's gonna sue you. Or, yes, the teachers, you know, they cannot think there's very limited what they can do. And that creates this culture in some places. Or I can do it I like. And

00:24:52.599 --> 00:25:33.799
when you don't actually have steady values, where you say, this is the value system that we're working from, then what do you what do you fill the kids up with? So you need some kind of value system, and it needs to be at home and at school. We so it's really interesting. When I study sociology, they there's a primary socialization, which is what happens at home, we teach kids what the rules are and how the world works, and then there's secondary and that's when you go to school and you're starting to look out, and the schools are teaching you how to and the community is teaching you. And somewhere along the lines, the values have gone away from the community and online, and we need to somehow bring them back into our communities and be much more definite about what our value systems are.

00:25:34.220 --> 00:25:46.240
Yeah, because the online community shouts louder, doesn't it? It does shout louder. There's 1000s of amazing teachers out there trying to do that job and other community leaders. It's just the online world is louder and shinier.

00:25:46.660 --> 00:25:47.019
Yeah,

00:25:47.019 --> 00:26:20.460
I think so. And yes, and it's and the other thing I've really noticed is that some kids absorb the way you do things, and what you say, your value systems and things, and then other kids need explicit explanations. And I've got those kids. I've got a child who needs to she will not absorb it from just seeing it. I have to actually say, No, this is how I see things. This is what I believe to be of value, and this is how I think people should behave. And without actually having those conversations with her, her ideas are formed by her friends. Yeah,

00:26:20.460 --> 00:26:39.259
yeah. That's so true. That's so true. And they, they all are, aren't they, but they're on, it's on a spectrum of how much you can influence and how much you can go in and investigate what's actually going on in their minds. Yeah, but it's all very terrifying, and I think it can easily become overwhelming for parents. So we also need some reassurance in it, don't we? No,

00:26:39.259 --> 00:27:08.819
that's why I wanted, I wanted we have an episode on pornography, how to talk to your kid about pornography, what's been going on. So that you have, I want some absolute, definite information that you can listen to and use rather than saying, Ah, I don't know which jokes we've messed up. So all of these links will be in the podcast notes, all of these links, and there's it is. It's never too late to have conversations with your kids and just say, Oh, I feel like I didn't. I dropped the ball on that. Because you need to know that we're all struggling with it. Yes, it is not because it's

00:27:08.819 --> 00:27:16.619
quick. One person quickly becomes shameful, doesn't it quickly becomes panicky and like, oh my god, what have we done or not done?

00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:19.920
And we know that it's not very helpful, but it's hard to get out of but having information is the way up. And

00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:48.460
when I spoke to Andrew Hampton, who was a headmaster for 18 years, he said that this, this sort of masculinity. He said, really it needs to be, we need to be start talking to boys at the latest at 11. And I think a lot of schools try to tackle it maybe a bit later. The problem is some boys are still very, very innocent, and then other ones have been exposed to really quite unpleasant stuff. So how do you know where to where to put it?

00:27:44.980 --> 00:27:52.660
So in the schools, they're trying to find the sweet spot.

00:27:48.460 --> 00:27:58.119
Yeah, but we can start earlier talking about, what do you think makes a great man? Yes. What do you think makes a great woman?

00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:58.119
You know, when

00:27:58.119 --> 00:28:09.359
it's difficult, isn't it, when you've got maybe your male role models around you aren't great. We've also talked about that, haven't we? Another very uncomfortable. It's just very difficult, isn't it?

00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:22.759
Because, you know, the education space is very women dominated, depending on your school, obviously. But having, if you don't have a dad at home, for example, or you don't have a good uncle, you know, you have to go out and find good male role models. Yes, yes. It's it's it's complicated.

00:28:22.880 --> 00:29:32.059
It's very complicated. And there's, I in terms of male role models, I thought what was so interesting was the father tried to get Jamie to be good at football, yeah, do you remember? And his son just wasn't good at it. And when he looked at his dad for support, for support, his dad was embarrassed and looked away and and then also the boxing and all this sort of stuff. And I and I think his dad was trying to connect with him, and so this is what a man is, because he didn't have the vocabulary to just discuss this. But actually, the boy, I think, was left feeling like he was much less of a man than he should be and and even when, at the, do you know, at the end, when he was the final episode, when he was being, when he was coming up for trial and he was going to change his plea and his he said, I've been going to the gym. And his sister said, Are you going to be a, I don't know what she said, weight trainer, bodybuilder, and he said, No. And I think there's so much wrapped into this bulking up and little skinny boys think going, well, what am I a man if I'm not?

00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:59.920
I really felt for the dad in that really, because I think that is so normal. I think often, you know, the dads obviously just thought, oh, I want to connect. He was obviously super loving and caring and adored his kids like clearly, and he wanted to connect with him. And the kid didn't like football, but was trying, and the dad was trying, and they just it was a mismatch, and it was probably very tiny little little looks away, wasn't it? He was, he was, he was trying to be supportive and but he looked away at the wrong way.

00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:06.720
And Jamie picked up on that, yes, ah, the nuances is tiny, but really valuable. And

00:30:06.720 --> 00:30:22.160
he's and he kept looking for people to say, to say they like him, yeah, you know, even, even the psychologist, you know, he kept even at the end he was saying, but do you like me? Yes. Oh, it was heartbreaking. So this is a boy who's got a deep sense of being unloved,

00:30:22.220 --> 00:30:27.319
yeah, with really loving parents, exactly, with really, I mean, they were beautiful, yes. So

00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:50.200
we have to investigate. So where does that come from? Where does our sense that we're and we've talked about this and in terms of just the way our identity forms, and how important this sense that we are loved unconditionally is, and that we we can think we're showing our kids that, but we have to be really explicit, yes, and it needs to be not something they did. It's just for who they are, yeah,

00:30:50.259 --> 00:31:25.400
and again and again again, because maybe in the world and not seeing that, yeah, it feels kind of superfluous sometimes, doesn't it? Yeah, if I tell my kids like, I'm so proud of you. If it just pops out, I'm so proud of you, they'll go, why? What for? And I just, I go, just because you're you, yeah. And they go, Oh, okay, Oh, thanks. But, you know, they wonder why. That's how our cultures, our cultures, built up on to be, you know, to you need to be worthy of it. Somehow you need to take me to point yes.

00:31:20.299 --> 00:31:34.640
Why do you why? Like, they'll feed it back. Sometimes I haven't, I haven't done anything well. But why are you proud of me right now, like in this moment, just because you're you?

00:31:30.019 --> 00:31:34.640
Yes. Oh, okay,

00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:55.000
yes. And that comes into the manosphere stuff, which we'll talk about in a minute, because it's about, you know, what she What do women love about you? Yeah. How do you get Yes? And I thought it was really interesting, because there was a great moment when the psychologist said to him, so is your dad loving? And he said, No, that's weird,

00:31:55.539 --> 00:32:01.559
yes. And really mean it, though, did he like it's no, but he behind it,

00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:06.599
yes, exactly.

00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:23.299
And he's and the nuance of the word loving had all been all mixed up in his brain. And he, and he almost felt like, what you mean, and the word nonce, yeah, on the side of the band, which means being a pedophile and and maybe he associated that with his dad, you know, he just, they can't unpick these words.

00:32:23.299 --> 00:32:32.119
The program was trying to make that link. Was it like, you know, loving the male space, loving is like, Oh, you must be your nonce. Yes, awful, which

00:32:32.119 --> 00:32:41.740
is really, really painful, because I remember my ex saying his dad used to grab his hand when they were driving and just say, I love you. And just those beautiful things where you think, Oh, that's so wonderful.

00:32:41.740 --> 00:33:15.119
And I actually coached parents in inner city, London. I had this my favorite person was the trickiest one, and I remember her turning up really giving me a hard time. And over time, I got to know her, and I just loved her, because I love those people. I love the people who are pushing back a bit. And she disappeared, and I think one or two sessions later she came back, and I said, Where were you? I missed you. And she said that she had been to her Nan's funeral. That's her grandmother, and that she suddenly realized that they were the weird ones.

00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:46.180
And I said, Well, what do you mean? And she said, Well, when I was growing up, I used to look at other families who would hold their children's hands and they'd hug, and I think you're perverts. Oh golly. And she said, I've realized that we're the weird ones, like we're none of our family touch. So she's went through this whole funeral no one touched or hugged or anything. And she said, I'm trying to hug my kids, but it feels really, really weird. So if you haven't grown up in an environment where that's normalized, then it becomes associated with something maybe not quite right, yeah,

00:33:46.180 --> 00:33:48.579
and yes, it's totally that's totally valid.

00:33:48.579 --> 00:33:59.019
And the online culture is telling spouting out this stream of stuff, it's really hard to ignore, even if you are in a different you know, even if your own culture is healthy, yes.

00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:24.440
And so coming on to this whole relationship with how you value yourself. So a lot of guys are getting a lot of pressure to bodybuild. So that was that was mentioned in this and, and the dad at one point said, you know, I just went on YouTube to get some tips for, you know, I think was working out or something. And then suddenly there was all this weird stuff. And, you know, a lot of men have said there's a direct pipeline between self improvement.

00:34:24.619 --> 00:34:36.619
It's integrated completely, 100% 100% I have two boys, and one of my boys is a real questioner, and which I love. And he said, Yeah, but there's good messages in it.

00:34:36.619 --> 00:34:38.900
Like, I don't see that. I don't say this good. It's really good.

00:34:38.900 --> 00:34:55.780
It's motivating. What's wrong with that, like, why is that a bad thing? But of course, it leads into the or the macho stuff, and then he could see that. But in his mind, in his mind, it was separate, which I think was super interesting. And then my other one, he works out.

00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:59.920
And he actually said, the other day, I saw the other day, and he said, he does work out. And he.

00:35:00.059 --> 00:35:08.940
He lifts weights and, yeah, he's super strong. Flick me off the table. Actually, he does actually lift me up and go look.

00:35:11.219 --> 00:35:53.920
But he said that he actually mentioned it just, we weren't even talking about this program or anything. He said, you know, in a few years ago, he would have been regarded as, like, super worked out and strong and fit. And he says, Now, I'm like, I'm not at all. I'm like, bottom end of normal, or, I don't know what he I can't remember what he said, but he's normal. And he was saying that all the people he knows, you know, they're all talking about taking steroids and all of that in the kind of the, you know, the the bigger Exia type thing. And he just recognized it, and just thinks it's, it's, it's so weird. But you they kind of almost have to jump on the bandwagon thing. We have an episode on it, don't we?

00:35:51.219 --> 00:36:01.139
The bigger X he is seeing it kind of unfolding in front of him, and is quite aware of it, yeah. And he works out because he wants to work out, and he likes the feeling of it. But I'm sure, because it's a

00:36:01.139 --> 00:36:09.840
healthy thing, and you see your kids going and doing this, and you think, that's great. They're checking on their nutrition, they're working on their and it's a social thing. Often going to the gym. They like to do it together. It's

00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:11.940
also a visual thing.

00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:17.820
And he admitted that, like, where you look is it's important, and if you don't look like that, then it's, you know, you're less than land somehow.

00:36:17.820 --> 00:36:21.679
These are my words, not his, but that was definitely what was implied,

00:36:21.800 --> 00:36:33.739
yeah, and my daughter's on a dating app, and she showed me loads and loads of the guys who just swipe through them, and so many of them are basically better also, really, yeah, and it's she doesn't like it. I mean, there must

00:36:33.739 --> 00:36:52.960
be loads of women that go, yay. Because although I was on a dating app many years ago now, and I've always seen a different category, because I'm old and crusty, and she's young and beautiful. And you know, the men were holding up fish, big fish, big fish. Going, look what I caught for you. Again.

00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:59.619
That's for medicine. So that is men talking to men. Other men will go, well, that's a great fish. They're just gonna go, okay,

00:36:59.619 --> 00:37:17.940
yeah, I don't want that swipe, or in front of a nice car or with their mothers sometimes, no, yeah, no, mothers, no, I kid you not swipe. I think they were supposed to look like, Oh, I'm really, I'm really in touch with my mom, like, I'm really lovely.

00:37:15.059 --> 00:37:26.360
And I was just thinking, I'm just thinking, I I'm just thinking, yeah, you have not cut your umbilical cord. Swipe anyway. We're digressing. Yeah, funny though.

00:37:27.500 --> 00:37:47.139
Yeah. So I think that what happens is we have, we've got a one on bigger X here. We've got, I've interviewed Mike Nicholson about looks. Maxine. Got lots of things on this. Again, they'll all be in the in the notes. And it's really helpful to understand that, for example, Andrew takes only one of them.

00:37:44.619 --> 00:38:18.960
There are some way worse people online. But what they do is very clever, because they they have all these images that fit a 12 year old boy's idea of what's really good and what's very masculine, lots of pictures and and they'll mix in all of the inspirational stuff they, you know, they use quotes, some really great, you know, spiritual leaders with their horrible and actually, a mother, this is great tip. A mother on tick tock has said, uh, so it's red pilling. It's kind of that.

00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:18.960
That's what we're talking about.

00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:31.519
It's people who take the red pill and they can see the truth and these, and this is in cell culture. So in cell culture is a belief that, you know, 80% of the women will only date 20% of the men, which means the rest of the men are on the on the shelf.

00:38:31.579 --> 00:39:07.559
And this boy, Jamie, feels like he's been taunted by a girl who ends up being stabbed, as if, as if that sort of online bullying deserves. You know, you deserve to be stabbed and have your life lost as a result. Anyway, she used it to bully him online. And this mother, who was helping her son think again about Red Pill culture, had heard her son say, Oh yes, you know, women only date men where they got loads of money. And she said, really? So show me the women in our community like that. And he went, No, no, but I mean online?

00:39:04.679 --> 00:39:29.480
She said, No, no, no, let's look around our community and you tell me which women are doing that. What is how many of the women behave like that? And she kept bringing him back offline to reality, and she said, I live in a really poor community. And so I said to my son, how do you think all these men ended up marrying these women? Yes, what do you think they tied them up?

00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:33.139
And you know, she said, this is just patently not true. So you're being fed a line online.

00:39:33.260 --> 00:39:42.579
That's actually not true. And did that go in for him? Yes. She said it was an absolute wake up moment. And I think this is the thing. So when we hear staff.

00:39:39.380 --> 00:39:56.800
What we need to do is, you don't say But that's ridiculous. You say, Okay, well, let's look at reality. Yes, let's look around us so and also with the girls, when they're talking about not being beautiful or whatever, you just say, well, let's walk around Morrison's today or one of the supermarkets, and let's actually look at what real, real people look

00:39:56.800 --> 00:40:07.019
like. That's a really simple do, doable thing to counteract. Which I really like, that the everyday is all we have, isn't it really? Well, it isn't because we've got the online world, but it's a brilliant counter action, yes.

00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:14.280
And also, I've read and looked at stuff like, how else do we counteract this? What can we do?

00:40:10.260 --> 00:40:53.079
And you know, the presence of healthy male role models, you know, ones who talk about their emotions, talk about their feelings, although, at the moment, if we kind of use the term social capital like that, the capital isn't really there at the moment, is it? That's not, but it, but it could be. It could be. I mean, there is a world. Isn't there where, where it's okay to have feelings that there's almost like there's two, two worlds. I know there's a there's a world that's growing for men, where we acknowledge and realize that suicide rates for men are awful, and we need they need groups, and they need to take care of themselves in a different way. And that's growing, which is beautiful and amazing. I keep seeing things locally, which is so heartening.

00:40:54.400 --> 00:41:14.699
And then there's the other world, where it's going the other way, and I don't know how we can raise the the healthy one. You know that that men need to, you know, when they need to talk about if they don't feel good enough, they feel if they feel like they're one of the 20% which is a horrible way to look at the world, at all agreed, but if they do feel that they're that, you know, let's talk about it.

00:41:14.699 --> 00:41:35.300
Okay? Yeah, I've got two points about that that were really interesting. So Mike Nicholson said what they found is they found, boys know that they can talk about things, and the problem is they they've never, and they know where they can go to talk about things, but they've never seen a man they love and respect or admire doing that. Oh, interesting. So that was number one thing that

00:41:35.300 --> 00:41:57.940
really resonates, actually, because somebody very close to me, who who is male, has had some counseling, and I told my eldest about it, and his immediate response was, Oh, are you allowed to tell me that? Is he okay telling me that? And I was like, Yeah, of course. I just thought that was an interesting response. Yes, not.

00:41:55.239 --> 00:41:59.139
You know, that must be embarrassing for him, yeah.

00:41:59.139 --> 00:43:08.579
And that's the other one. So again, coming back to Andrew Hampton, who I learned so much from, he talked about, he said the thing that boys fear most is shame. And he said they won't talk about shame because it's shameful to feel shame. So you end up in this, this really, really difficult zone where the one emotion that is acceptable is anger. Yes, so anger becomes your language, unless you find other language that you can use to talk about it. And I just thought that was very, very interesting, and it's important to recognize that boys will and can feel shame and that it can come out in these ways, like the dad, where he just loses it, and all the women around him are having to kind of manage this emotional outburst feeling, which, by the way, is what Jamie did in that meeting with a psychologist who this extraordinary woman who managed to just hold her own in an incredibly emotionally fraught experience stuck in a room on her own with this really angry boy, and, well, he went through a range of emotions, didn't he?

00:43:08.579 --> 00:43:17.159
It was almost like he was trying to find, like, how do I, how do I impact? Yeah, what do I but what is the emotion I'm allowed to have here? But how,

00:43:17.159 --> 00:43:28.579
and also, how do I release this awful feeling inside? Because there's a difference between anger and rage. Like anger is when, like when you you know, anger is a totally normal, healthy signal.

00:43:25.400 --> 00:43:48.760
That's, you know, our boundaries have been crossed, or we have something is unfair. Rage is, is much bigger. It's like a volcano, yeah, and it's male rage that is the worrying one and the one that they're talking about. And you see it, don't you see it? You see it. In Jamie, it's rage, yes. He sees red, yes.

00:43:48.760 --> 00:44:28.760
And he's now lost control completely, yeah, which is really interesting. And the, you know, the question is, who teaches our boys how to channel like, what is the language that they can use to express themselves? And because, in Nairobi, way, has done a lot of work on this, and again, there were other episodes where I've talked about this, and her point is that, because she studied for, I think, 30 years boys in secondary schools going from being really loving for, you know, this kind of junior school thing, to not being allowed to really show your love and affection for another boy, because that's just verboten, yes, and it's, how do we actually let boys talk about it?

00:44:25.639 --> 00:44:28.760
Yeah, that's

00:44:28.760 --> 00:44:48.519
interesting with the shame, isn't it? Because shame is a crippling, horrible feeling. We've all experienced that and shame our Brene Brown, you know, it dies when we share in a safe space. So I'm wondering, from what you've just said, where the boys they you know, maybe they dip their toe into I know I'm allowed to speak. I know it's important.

00:44:48.519 --> 00:45:08.099
Something is bothering me, and they do it in the wrong space, or they do it in a space that's not ready to hear stuff like that. And then they get laughed out. And then the shame was almost doubled, isn't it? It's really important to. A diffuse shame. It has to be a safe space. It has to be a space where it's received well, and then it dissolves, but otherwise, or it doubles if you do it in

00:45:08.099 --> 00:45:47.380
the wrong space. And that's why, that's where the adults become so important. So you know, again, people who are going, who are in this space, lots and lots of amazing men going into schools, giving boys a safe environment where they're not judged and they can talk about the things that they're seeing, the pornography, the you know, the hate, all that stuff. They can actually unpack it and unless they're in it. And the only thing we can do as parents is to provide a really judgment free space where we don't shame them for things that they've seen or done. What we need to do is we need to say, oh, let's talk about that. How did that make you feel? What do you think you know? Be curious. Yeah, just judgmental about

00:45:47.380 --> 00:45:49.360
it. And that's that's the problem, isn't it?

00:45:49.360 --> 00:46:04.139
Because there can be a ton of stuff going on that feels so shameful for them, and they see their mates not sharing either, they just pack it away. So you know, it's all very well that we go, oh yeah, at home, we'll have a safe space, and we'll talk about it. But if you don't know, if you don't know what's happening, and

00:46:04.139 --> 00:46:24.079
that's why this is so powerful, yeah, because what it's done is it's opened up, you know, through art, they've opened up a space where we can actually look in and go, Oh my goodness, yes. And like you said, with the emojis, I mean, that's one of the things they illustrated really well, was these adults are all in this environment. They can see stuff going on, but they don't see any of it because they don't understand that. Translate it.

00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:24.079
Can't translate it. My

00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:31.400
kids didn't know anything about that. I haven't asked my eldest, actually, but my two there, I said, do you know about that? And they were like, No, what's that? No, and,

00:46:31.400 --> 00:47:05.460
but I do have sure it's right. Yeah, no. I've got a great Periodic Table of emojis from amic Kelly, who specializes in screen time device use, and he's created a digital charter that parents can use. So I'll put that in amazing if you want the PDF with the information, then just sign up to my email and i'll send it out. I think one other thing I just wanted to talk about was the the was the women, the role of the women and the female assessor in that. And I thought it was so interesting, because that was such a powerful scene.

00:47:05.460 --> 00:47:13.139
She was incredibly, she was incredible. So number one, my daughter said, Is she autistic?

00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:15.719
And I said, Why would you say that? She said, well, she's not.

00:47:13.139 --> 00:47:15.719
She doesn't have any expression.

00:47:15.719 --> 00:47:57.880
And I said, Isn't that interesting that we're used to women smiling or trying to be trying to show make people feel better. But she's actually, there are a lot of men who will give you a deadline face, and nobody says anything being authoritative. Aren't they just being authoritative? And her that awful guard who security guard who was in her space, in her face, all of us women have experienced men like that, and they do it without other male companies. So the other men don't see it happening. Some men do see it happening and don't step in. Yeah. I have heard from my, one of my bonus daughters, that she's noticed guys are stepping in more, right? Which is amazing. That's amazing. It's amazing. It's wonderful. So there is some light then, yeah?

00:47:54.039 --> 00:48:05.579
But I just thought what was really interesting was he had all these insecurities, and she didn't reassure him. He kept saying what, you know, aren't you supposed to say? She was very professional.

00:48:05.579 --> 00:48:09.659
She was very brilliant at her job, because as a psychologist, you wouldn't do that. But it

00:48:09.659 --> 00:48:19.920
also was him trying to say, but you're supposed to reassure me, you're supposed to. And he was used to people around him just brushing it off, going, No, no, but you are fine. We do like you, yeah.

00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:21.500
And he's saying, but you're supposed to say this, and she didn't,

00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:25.039
and that's the cleverness of it, isn't it like?

00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:27.500
What does it like when you don't get that? How do you feel then?

00:48:27.559 --> 00:48:33.139
Well, he's expecting the woman to give him this reassurance, and she's not.

00:48:29.480 --> 00:49:02.460
So yeah, just before we go, I did want to mention an amazing thing I saw on Facebook where a local man got he put a piece on Facebook saying, I just wondered if there any dads around who want to do just a guy's experience with their size. Did you see that? Yeah, and overwhelming response, yes. So what he's offered up? He got all the response, and then he said, Okay, here's what I'm going to offer. He's offered boxing, training, hiking, staff, carving using copper and leather.

00:48:59.440 --> 00:49:26.539
Firecraft, butchering a deer and eating it like a whole day for free. It's amazing so that men with their younger people can actually get together and do stuff. Now, some of that is really old fashioned. This is what a man is. But my point is, I think this is absolutely the sorts of things that we in communities can be doing. And I think religious communities, whatever religion, actually used to offer a

00:49:26.539 --> 00:49:31.460
lot of this stuff, yeah, and they probably still do, but they still do people involved. We've got scouts, guides,

00:49:31.460 --> 00:49:47.980
things like that. Those sorts of communities were supposed to provide those sorts of spaces. So yes. So what we need to do as parents and people in communities is just think, How can we step up and offer things where we give an opportunity for people to do stuff together and talk? Yeah,

00:49:47.980 --> 00:50:04.380
I love that. I saw that amazing. The things I was sort of referring to, I thought, wow. And also, there was another one where it was for adults rather than for youth, but it could easily be for younger people too, like at. Space to come into Man Yes. And so much response,

00:50:04.380 --> 00:50:06.119
yes. And there's a men in sheds as well.

00:50:06.119 --> 00:50:15.780
The men in sheds is which has been going for quite a long time, which is a place where men can come and do crafts of some sort. So whether they're carving or fixing furniture or whatever.

00:50:16.440 --> 00:50:27.559
Oh, I know quite a few women who say I just forced my husband to go there because, honestly, he needs to talk to some other people retreating to themselves because they don't know how to they've never learned the skills to communicate and socialize.

00:50:27.559 --> 00:50:27.739
It's

00:50:27.739 --> 00:50:39.619
a group of men, actually, that meet on the corner of our park every Tuesday morning, and me and my daughter have noticed it. They're a bit older. They're obviously retired, and you see groups of women marching around all over the place, around where we live anyway, like they go on a hike.

00:50:39.860 --> 00:50:46.059
But it's rarely. It's men. And this men's group meets every Tuesday, and they walk around and they're all nattering away.

00:50:46.059 --> 00:50:47.500
It's brilliant, yeah, and I just

00:50:47.619 --> 00:50:57.159
want to say it's not the women's responsibility, like we it's not our job to fix what's going on with men. No, we can talk about it, and we can encourage things.

00:50:57.280 --> 00:51:04.139
But we also need to say to the guys, guys, you know you can do something. You can you can be an incredibly positive presence.

00:51:04.139 --> 00:51:23.420
There are some amazing things you can do. What are you going to do? Agreed, agreed, okay, right. We fixed the world now, no, we have done nothing but to walk as usual. Waffling never shuts up anyway. If you found this useful, do please share it.

00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:49.719
As I said, there are tons of links. There are lots of if you go onto the website, you can find all the old episodes. So you can just search using the search engine. Just search keyword. It's not the best, but you know, it's the best I can afford with my no money. And yeah, just go through and see what's out, what's in there, because there's lots of resources. I've also written quite a few blog things. You things, including stuff on the manosphere, brilliant. If you want to message me, you can use the Text button on the episode.

00:51:49.719 --> 00:51:55.119
I can't see you if you do that, so please don't ask me something that you want a response to.

00:51:52.539 --> 00:52:16.199
That's an email which is teenagers untangled@gmail.com I do email back. I don't email back every PR person. I'm very sorry. I'm too busy. My website is www.teenagersuntangled.com, Susie, you do so much, so much, so much. Yes, what? How can people reach you? You can

00:52:16.199 --> 00:52:21.739
find me on my website, which is www, dot, amindful. Hyphen, life.co.uk, what

00:52:22.760 --> 00:52:24.679
are you gonna do when you don't have teenagers?

00:52:27.139 --> 00:52:29.300
I'm gonna listen to the empty nest episode.

00:52:29.360 --> 00:52:37.760
Yes. Now there are two guys anyway. That's it for now. Have a great week. Big hug from me. Bye, bye, bye.

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