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Rachel, hello and welcome to teenagers.
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Untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teenage years. I'm Rachel Richards, parenting coach, journalist, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now it's hard enough being a parent of a teenager, but what if you have a child with needs that are, shall we say, complex. By that, I mean perhaps ADHD, autism, dyslexia, kids who are highly reactive. If you have one like this, you'll know it's just different. As my friend once said to me about her son, I've been to all the parenting classes. They tell me what to do, and then there's my son. Anyway, we have a treat for you today we are joined by Elaine Taylor-Klaus of impact ADHD, who wrote The Essential Guide to raising complex kids.
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I've read it cover to cover, and I can honestly say it's one of the best books I've ever read across on this topic. Thank you.
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Welcome Elaine. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us about this. There are so many tools that you talk about and it, I think, I actually think it's good for every parent, not just for the sort of parent we've just described. So and I love the way your book is written from personal experience, because I think there's an awful lot of sense that, you know, we hear people who are very worthy, who've done all the studies, and they know what they're talking about in terms of studies, but actually living this, this experience is very, very meaningful. Shall we start by exploring what you know, what things would indicate that we have a complex kid so,
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so, first of all, thank you. I'm thrilled to be here and so many things just in your introduction I want to respond to because I love talking about teenagers, and I think teenagers get a bad rap, and I think that parenting the teenage years is some of the most fun stuff you can ever do, and we have to get those biases out of the way so we can really be present to them. When I talk about a complex kid, I am talking about kids who struggle with life or learning or behavior or social issues or school issues or emotional regulation, kids who on some level, someplace in their life may not be hitting the metric that we expect of them, may be In some way different from their neurotypical peers, and oftentimes with these kids, they may be complex in one area, but not all areas.
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Often they have a spiky profile, don't they kind of inconsistency.
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They're consistently inconsistent. Spiky profile is great way to put it
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in your book you talk about coaching and reframing situations? Can you explain to us what generally you mean when you're talking about trying to coach your kids rather than the way some we all might normally parent? So
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the secret to what we do, and it was when we first started with impact parents, we've expanded. We are also now impact. I mean, it was impact ADHD, it's now impact parents.
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The secret is that we teach neurodiversity, informed coaching skills to parents, and we do that because when I was a parent that was struggling, and I became a coach, it was like a light bulb turned on, and everything shifted with how I was communicating with my kids in really beautiful, profound ways. And I'm not suggesting that people become their kids coach, but when you take a coach like approach, it's an empowerment based approach.
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Coaching is an empowerment based modality. It's about meeting people where they are and helping them move forward and create whatever they want to create for themselves and their lives, which is ultimately what we want to do as parents and in the modern world, the old paradigms of I'm the parent, you just listen to me and do what I say. They're out the window.
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They no longer apply. Our kids are exposed to a global world at the age of four and and so we cannot treat them like they're in this bubble. We have to enroll them in what it means to live in the world we live in, and enroll them in becoming their own personal self managers, and the process of doing that works really well with this kind of coaching approach that's about, we call It's a collaborative parenting style. It's about stepping alongside them and moving forward with them, instead of standing in front of them and dragging them forward. Yes,
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and I think it's easy to slip into that, because I think, I think actually when the kids are young, you sort of start off with that type of parenting, and then it's very hard to see the transition when that's supposed to happen, and know how it happens, particularly when it's your first kid. We're all on our first rodeo. We don't really know what we're doing, and it can feel really. Unsettling when you start having a kid that pushes back and you don't really know how it's like, how does this work? I don't my steering wheel isn't actually functioning.
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Or when, either when it's your first kid, or when your second kid doesn't perform like your first kid, or when your kid has some challenge with some aspects of life, for learning and so. So what happens? I think a lot what you're describing, we call it director mode. Every parent starts off in director mode.
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That's phase one. The problem is that we tend to get stuck there.
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And it's one thing to direct a three year old or a four year old, but when you start trying to direct a 13 year old, not only are they individually designed to push back, but they're also you're not helping them learn how to become a conscious, thoughtful decision maker. One
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of the things you talk about in your book is getting your kid. You don't want to be the world's expert on your kid. You want them to become the world's expert on them. So what are the things that we can Okay, so coming back to the kind of how we how we make this transition, because the truth is, we're all a bit scared that if we don't, you know that if I don't, kids don't keep up, and if we don't do it right, then they're going to fall behind.
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And if you've got a kid that's not a straightforward situation, who's not hitting those targets, for example, or who is reacting very often, it's really hard to know how to set expectations.
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Like, I don't know. Like, what am I supposed to expect from my child? How would you help a parent who would come to you and say that it's
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a beautiful question, and a few things come to mind.
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First of all, I think you referenced this earlier in your introduction, is that, you know, we all get out there, we read our parenting books and we listen to our parenting experts, and they tell us what to do, and then we kind of go, Yeah, but how, right? How do I do that in a way that works for my family at five o'clock when the pasta is boiling over and right? And so part of setting expectations, I think, is stepping into community, is finding your people. Is is beginning to see the ways parents come to us a lot. And, and we're the first time they've ever talked to somebody who gets what their life experience is like, and they think they're alone. They think they're the only ones going through this. And, and I got news for you, no matter what you're going through out there, I promise you, you're not alone.
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I promise you, there are other parents, not just one, but there are other parents going through some variation of the world that's very similar to what you're going through. And so you've got to find your people.
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You know, that's why we we started in 2011 the first thing was about community and community in classroom, because we knew new coaching worked. So so like, you've got a community of people who listen to this podcast, and they tune in, because when they hear you speaking about these issues, they don't feel so alone 100%
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that's exactly what we're doing. Yes, absolutely, and I, and it's, it's interesting, because the So, what you're talking about is that how we help ourselves?
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Because that's one of the problems, is that we feel shame, or we feel like, oh, I should be doing this, and my kids should be doing this, and we're hearing these should words in our heads, and
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we, we don't all over ourselves.
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So coming back to the question, which was about, how do I know how to set, you know, realistic expectations. Because I there was a, there was a great phrase that a friend used sometime, you know, a few years back that just hit a light bulb for me, which was learned dependence. And she said, yeah, and she said that she'd seen this in in various kids. And hands up. That's what I did because, you know, I have a daughter who's dyslexic, and, you know, you look at it, you go, Oh, well, you find this really hard. And and you start to sort of step in and take over things where you think they're struggling, rather than giving them the the wings. But, but how do we move? How do we do that
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so? And I think you know that what you're asking is a really complicated question,
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very complicated.
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So, like they all, they call it learned dependence, also learned helplessness. And I remember having a teacher accuse me, literally accuse me, when my kid was in seventh grade. Of this kid's just got learned helplessness, and you just need to get out of their way. Well, there's a partial truth to that, but there's also not. When you have complex kids, they need a different level of scaffolding, and so part of the so I go back to community. First, you got to get around your P. So that you have your peer group of people you're checking in with, understand what you're dealing with, so you're not comparing yourself against the neighbors down the street or the sister in law, whoever, who's who's because their kids are perfect, right? So you've gotta find your people so that you you have a community of people who are also struggling so you hear what's within the realm of typical for your kids and what's not. So that's one thing. Then the next thing is that in our framework, we talk about taking aim, we want to be always working with our kids to cultivate the next level of independence and simultaneously scaffolding other things, so that they have the space and the freedom, the capacity to work on that level of independence. So for example, you're talking about your your daughter, you're talking about dyslexia, having school issues.
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I have a child with dyslexia who's now a 27 year old medical student. So they can do this, y'all, it's just takes a lot of work. So when she was in middle school, at first, I would sit down with her and say, What do you have for homework? And I would write it all down. And then as we move forward, then she would say, here's what I want you to write down. And then she would guide me, and then she would write it down, but she liked me sitting with her, and then she would do it on her own.
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So it's an incremental process of of, I call it passing the baton right to them, but, but while I was working with her on homework, I was getting her a snack, and I might have been doing her laundry or, you know, other things, so that she was really focusing on taking the ownership of her schoolwork as hers. But it was an incremental process. It didn't just one day.
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I didn't just say, Okay, now you're on, I'm off.
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Doesn't work.
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Yes, yes. And that's one of the things we talk about where, you know, what happens is our kids become teenagers, and then suddenly the expectations ramp up overnight, and the the all the hormones are going mad, and we start going, well, they're just getting it all wrong. And actually what we have to do, I love your your point about scaffolding is that actually we have to be realistic and scaffold things so they can pick off things that they can get become adept at and then we can give them a little bit more, and
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we want to do it collaboratively. So I often ask the question, whose agenda is it? If it's if it's your agenda, then it's not theirs. Now it may be a shared agenda. The goal is to move from, you know, when they're younger, homework is our agenda. Okay? It's time to sit down and do homework. Then at some time you you move to a collaborative agenda. It's like so when do you think you want to get your homework done? Notice the shift is you. If you hear as a parent, you hear yourself saying, We about homework, you're in director mode. So it's time to shift into collaboration mode. When do you want to do your homework? And then the next stage. So collaboration, we kind of dance between collaboration and then the next is support, most of these years, and so we're sharing the agenda when they take it on, and now they've got the mantle, they've got the baton, then we move into support role. How can I help you? What do you need from me? So I'm no longer saying, When are you going to do your homework? I'm coming in and saying, I know you've got it going on this afternoon. I just want you to know we have this happening for dinner, just so you can plan your time. Is there anything you need from me? So you see, I've shifted from we're doing this together to I get that you've got this I'm your support team.
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Yeah,
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I love that. I love that. And it's, it's taking, I think I, I did a New Year's resolution blog on this kind of, you know, writing down all the things that they want to be able to do, and then just pick one thing and just just support everything else. Just
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do the one, preferably one thing they care about,
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that they care it has to be something they care about. I mean, I did this about myself, and it's kind of but it mirrored, is mirrored with our kids. If we can project that onto our kids and say, Well, I'm not going to work on something if I if I say I have to lose weight because everyone thinks I'm fat, I'm not going to lose weight because it's not everybody else's agenda. But if I want to make a change that really resonates with me, then I'm going to actually make an effort. So that's exactly what you're talking about, isn't it?
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It's brilliant. And I think one of the things that you're talking about with actually finding community, I really think, is I only recently came to this kind of understanding that community is so important and we need to find it wherever we can. But it's also about, you know, the bullies in our heads that are telling us you should do this, you should be this. And I'd love I know that in the book, there's so many great things for people to tick off in the book that can help you. But can you just talk to us about how we can go from that sort of panic phase if we're in a situation where we think, Oh, I can't handle that. I can't do this, you know, because there's so much noise and disruption. If you've got a. A, you know, noisy household, or kids who don't control themselves very well.
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What can we do to support ourselves?
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There's so many. That's such a beautiful question. I was laughing when you we said bully, because one of the very first articles I ever wrote was called tame the bully within. And it's about the ways that we bully ourselves, the messages we tell ourselves, the shooting all over ourselves. And so I like to talk in metaphors a lot, and I like to give people very practical ways. I like to take complicated stuff and make it simple. So the simple way that I would answer that question is to put the stick down. Because I think we parents have this stick that we hit ourselves over the head with right to get ourselves to do stuff. And for years it was a really effective strategy, because it got us to handle everything, but we end up with this kind of well worn groove in our head all these years of beating ourselves over the head.
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And so we have to put the stick down. And to do that, this is no joke. I have my clients go outside and find a stick and bring it inside and put it on your desk or on your kitchen counter or in your car or wherever. And my favorite story was the client who came back to me and said, I painted it, and now it's my magic wand. Loved it. It's, it's a reminder that beating ourselves up isn't serving us, and it's certainly not serving our kids, and it's modeling for our kids self Not, not self love, the opposite of self love. And so it it's very hard to to find self love. I think, I think a lot of it's is something that a lot of us struggle with in our lives. My husband and I were just talking about this recently, and it's probably the best gift. This is going to be strange, but it's probably the best gift you can give your kids if you can learn to stop beating yourself up. I had to practice not saying I'm such an idiot, because every time I made a mistake, I would say such an idiot. I can't believe I did that. Well, that's that's not sending out a really healthy message to anybody. And so I Yes, yes, Positive Intelligence is all about they have you take a picture of your child and put like I had it on my screensaver for a long time, right? So my my message here is that self talk is self care, and that self care just starts with how we talk to ourselves, and self care is not making enough time to get bubble baths and, you know, go to spa retreats, and that's not what it's about when you're raising kids. Self care starts with how you talk to yourself and and with self love and respect.
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Yeah. And you mentioned in the book the use of of potentially coming up with trigger words that you can, like bubble gum, that you can use in a family setting, so that there's a shorthand way of saying, Okay, this isn't going to this isn't going to work. Can you sort of talk through, I think the broccoli was one of them, wasn't it, right? The ice cream. Talk to us about this.
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What? How can we use this? So,
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so a code word is an agreed term, just as you say that you use for a shortcut you can't you don't start with a code word. You start with, we're working as a family, and we want to improve whatever it is. So one code word for us was our kids. My kids love to wrestle.
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And when they were little, it wasn't long, they would wrestle, and then somebody would get upset, and then it would cross over, right? And this is a classic family dynamic. And so we had a conversation about, I don't want you to stop wrestling, and I would like you guys to figure out, how do you stop it before somebody gets really upset. So how do we handle that we talked about? So first we had agreement.
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Everybody wanted that change right back to whose agenda it was. It had to be their agenda, not mine. Once we shared the agenda, then we could say, Okay, well, let's come up with a code word so that when somebody says that, that means everything stops. And so they came up with the word basta, enough, right?
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And so when somebody said basta, that meant the wrestling stopped. When somebody said rope, that meant I'm about to lose it. And so I really and so everybody shifted from whatever dynamic was happening to Okay.
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Our job now is to help this sibling Calm down, right?
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Because rope meant I'm reaching the limit, right? So broccoli ice cream was a great one. That was they, they have to make up.
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Word. I didn't make up the words broccoli ice cream was the term for when someone was hungry, right? When someone was hungry or frustrated or and we figured out, one of my kids, that when they were hungry, they would just get completely dysregulated. And so when we called broccoli ice cream, everything would stop, and we would we wouldn't talk about anything again, until we got food. Once we got food, then we could talk about something again. And my kids are now adults, and we still use the term broccoli ice cream. I mean, it's still, it's a beautiful
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it also helps them to go, oh, it's because I'm hungry. I just need to stop. And because this is a, this is a useful skill in life. My daughter, when she gets hungry, she becomes a zombie. She just, you know, and she needs someone else. I can see it in her, and I She needs someone else to just feed her quickly. Otherwise, she just kind of, that's
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mine too. Mine too, yeah, and so it's, it's, I'd never really thought about it till this conversation, but often we use them for tools for emotional regulation, but not always. Like I had one kid who used to have a jaw drop, would sit with the mouth open, and so the code word was cookies, and that just meant close your mouth. So so I didn't have to say, Yes, right? I had one. It wasn't a word, it was a I just tapped two fingers on the table.
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Meant use your fork. Okay? I like so I didn't have to say, right? Yes, yes. I
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like that.
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That's a, that's a really nice, gentle, you know, encouraging way of doing
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it. Lovely, yeah. And again, the buy in has to be there first. Has
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to be there from that yes, and for them to come up with the word or the the action, because then, you know, none of it seems like it's you pushing yourself.
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You're not directing.
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No, you're collaborating. I
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love it. I love it. And one of the things you talk about is this kind of we need to try and get that message across to them that we believe they can do better, rather than we're scared that they're broken or wrong. How can we feel the difference between, you know, fear. And
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this is a great question. Okay, so I went to the European Conference on positive psychology this summer, and I was speaking there, and I was, it was fabulous. Loved it. And two, not one, but two of the keynotes spoke to this issue.
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One was a guy named Michael Unger in Canada, who's done leading world research on resilience, and the other was a guy named Andreas Kraft from Europe, who has done some of the greatest research in the world on hope. He's a futurist. Okay, both of them talked about how important it is for people to see their capacity and to have people to who believe in them.
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So there's been a lot of research on resilience, and not just others work but, but there was a longitudinal study.
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There's a lot of work on resilience and what, what they've learned is that even kids who start off in very underserved environments and communities, no matter their the correlation to their success in life is more about having one adult in their life who believes in them than it is about their intelligence, because when someone believes in you, it gives you the capacity to believe in yourself. So I say to parents all the time, our job is to hold the vision for them even when they can't hold it for themselves, because sometimes they can't, and so sometimes it's I believe in you, and I know you can do it, and I know you don't see that about yourself right now, and that's okay. You don't have to, because I'm holding it for you, and I've got it till you're ready to believe it, and I will tell you.
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And this is true story. This year, my 23 year old was going through some really, really tough stuff. And He came to my husband and me, and he actually said, Thank you for holding the vision for me, because I really am having a hard time seeing it right now, but I know you've got it like it really, really makes a difference for kids to know that you see their capacity.
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Because they're kids, they're teenagers. They, I mean, it's quintessentially they're wired to question everything about themselves, yes,
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and to look to us, you know, as the person who who's had all the experience and can see what's out in the world and will tell them, you know, like, if they feel like they're broken, and we confirm that, then they're going to feel
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broken Exactly. But here's the key, is not to let it be one more expectation. So there's a guy named Jerry Schultz who read the book know where to hide, and what he taught me that's really important was not to have the vision become a pressure point.
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So it's not I believe in you. I know you can do it, because if they don't believe it, then.
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That's one more way that they're disappointing you. But if it's I believe in you, I know you can do it, and I get that you don't see it right now, and that's okay, then we're not It's not setting up one more place where they feel like they're failing.
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Yeah, I got that distinction, important discussion. Yeah, I love that. I love that. And it's interesting, because also when it comes to so we there's the belief side and there's also the the consequences. Now I've done an entire episode on how we set consequences. I did a blog on it because I found it so interesting, and I wanted to research into it. And really what I found was that consequences only work when there's a connection with the child and when they really believe that actually what you're trying to do is help them, rather than punish them, and and, and so, you know, when we're when we're quite trying, we've got a child who's maybe a bit complex, or he's got, you know, really struggling with certain skills. How can we create an environment where they're going to learn, but where the you got boundaries and consequences. So
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I love what you're saying. And there's a whole section in the book of the that asks, Are you using consequences as consequences or as punishments, right? So I talk about that a lot in the book, well, and so it's a punishment, if they didn't, couldn't anticipate what the consequence was going to be, right? If, if you've had the conversation in advance, curfew is 12 o'clock, how are we going to handle it?
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If you come in late, what's the result going to be? That's a consequence, because now they know they can make take an action that moves them toward or away from that consequence. Now they may, and you've discussed it in advance. Now they may have time management issues, so that may be something to work on, but when you have a natural consequence or a real consequence in place, you get to stay on your kid's team instead of being the Enforcer. See, I told you, you get to be the Oh man, I'm so sorry you missed it.
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What can we do to work together to make sure that next time you're able to hit because I know you really want your Xbox tonight, and I'm really sorry that that you can't have that.
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What can we do to help set you up for success next time? So now they feel like you're on their team. I like to say, let the system be the bad guy. So the consequence is the system, but it only works if they know what it is in advance and they can anticipate and take action based on that.
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Yes, that's, that's, I love that way of putting it like, Oh, I really want this for you. And you know, we need to try and work on how we can get it there. Are there any other things that you go on?
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Yeah,
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just want to say something about that. So we see this a lot around issues of driving. So we're talking about teenagers, right? So a lot of parents get very caught up in my kids not getting their driver's license, or they're they're, you know, like or they're not doing what they need to do, and and it becomes our agenda for the kids to get the license instead of theirs. That I think that happens a lot, whereas I would say our kids are smart enough to see that driving is dangerous and some of them aren't quite ready. It's very typical for kids to do it later these days, but that's a great place where we instead of, well, they're not doing they're taking their tests and they're not doing this. If they're going to fail the exam, it's like, okay, well, what if they fail the driver's exam?
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What if we get on their team?
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It's like, Man, I'm so sorry.
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How could I work with you? What do you need to do differently to get it the next time if we stay on their team instead of expecting from them, we want for them, and that's the distinction I would make.
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That's a brilliant distinction. I love it, and it's very pertinent because my I did an episode recently on getting your kids learning to drive, which is an interesting one, because both me and my co host in that process right now. So are they? Are there any other real nuggets or useful things that you can hand to the parents who are listening that will help them on this journey.
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There are a million because I, because I love this work, and this is, this is what I do all day long. I think the coach approach is such a powerful framework for parenting. I think the two things I want to say are this first, parenting is called parenting for a reason. It's about us, so giving yourself permission to pay attention to yourself and to a space to think about what's important to me.
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How do I want to be as a parent?
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Parenting is more about the being than the doing, and we get caught up in the doing, and we get caught up in the especially the teenagers. It's task over relationship, and we've got to put the relationship first. And the relationship starts with the relationship with a. Ourself and then, and that allows us to be in relationship. So, so the first thing I would say is pay attention to give yourself permission to pay attention to yourself and how you want to be in relationship with your kid and lean into relationship. It's way more important than any towel that is bothering you on the floor. And then the second thing I would say is make it okay to make mistakes, and understand that the single most important life skill you can teach a teenager is that it's okay to ask for help. And asking for help is not a weakness, it's a strength and it's a life skill, and we have to do it by modeling it, and we have to do it by embracing it and verbalizing it. And we can't tell them to accept help, right?
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We have to enroll them in seeing the value to them, in asking for and we're accepting help. And that is an art
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really, yes, yes, am I? It's very interesting, because one of my bonus daughters is particularly good at this. And it's, it's, it's like a marvel to to notice her doing and and it means that she's constantly growing, and she she comes up against really difficult things, and she keeps going because she keeps asking for support.
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I did a podcast episode on our podcast with my middle daughter, who was then a graduate from college before medical school, and the head of Disability Services at her university. And the two of them came on together, and the message of that podcast was, the most successful kids at college are the ones who know how to ask for help.
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Ah, amazing. It was, it
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was very, very clear, like the kids who knew how to ask for the help they needed were fine. It was the kids who were like, I don't want it. I don't need it. I don't want to need it that were struggling.
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Interesting.
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Elaine Taylor, class, thank you so much. If we have listeners who'd like to come and find you, how would they go about that?
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So we are, we are everywhere at impact parents or impact ADHD, we do have a podcast. So if you're listening to this podcast, you probably love listening podcasts. I invite you to join us at the parenting with impact podcast, also wherever you podcast and on that, we have lots of free gifts and resources and Parent Guides and newsletters, and we call ourselves a private sector business for the public good. So much, much, much of what we do is free. And then we also have free based programs, like our Parent Training Program and the coach approach is called sanity school for parents, and we have other coaching for parents and all kinds of resources as well.
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But whether it's with us or somewhere just you know, get get connected, get in community and give yourself permission to get the support you need, it makes an enormous difference.
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Brilliant.
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Thank you so much, Elaine. If you found this useful, please share it with at least one other person. Or if you're feeling generous, you could leave a review on Apple audible or stars on my website. It's www teenagersuntangled com. Elaine's information will be on there too, and in the podcast notes, you can message me on teenagersuntangled@gmail.com That's it. Have a great week.
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Bye, bye. You.
