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Rachel, hello and welcome to teenagers.
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Untangled the audio hug for parents going through the teenage years. I'm Rachel Richards, journalist, parenting coach, mother of two teenagers and two bonus daughters. Now, I recently had a really fascinating chat with Sammy Wright, who wrote the book examination, why our obsession with grades fails everyone. And while I was preparing for it, I happened to notice another book was published about grades at almost the same time across the pond in the United States. This one's called failing our future.
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How grades harm students and what we can do about it is by Joshua Eiler, Director of the Center for Excellence in Teaching and Learning at the University of Mississippi. Given that most of us have kids in school, and we know we have an important role to play in their education, I figured, well, we really can't. We can't talk about this topic enough. So you know, beside, besides, this entire book has lots of guidance from research that's been done by other people, and as a whole chapter on, hey, what can we parents be doing? So love that.
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So Josh was kindly. Josh has kindly joined us today. Thanks so much. Great. Now, what did you know that examination was coming out the book that
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I've actually a mutual connection. Let me know about it, and it's on my on the way to me. Now I'm looking forward to reading it.
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It's very different to yours, but, but it has a similar kind of, you know, thinking behind it. It's much more of a kind of, you can tell it's written by somebody who writes novels as well. And it'll be, I'll be fascinated to know what you think, but I do think it's interesting how we've got two sides of the Western Pond actually talking to each other, in a sense. So I'd like to start with something that you said in your book that I thought was really, really sparked something for me. And you talk about how this focus on grades starts really early, and you likened it to Tetris blocks that build up super quickly. And I just thought, Gosh, that's so that's such an interesting way of looking at it. And the thing is, greater being around in our system for very long time. So what's changed?
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Well, I think so much has changed and so much hasn't changed at the same time, and that's part of the problem.
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And so I, you know, I think that Tetris reference says more about my own pop culture touchstones than anything else, but it does.
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It does start very early, and while we might see it as a grade on this paper or a grade on this exam, the the repercussions for the students who are going through this system is akin to the idea of the pile up that it it's not a one and done. That's not I got a B on this assignment or I got an 82 on this particular test. It's really the cumulative effect on our children's motivation to learn, their their performance in the classroom and their their psychology, the the grades work kind of in tandem to have this sort of effect on them as learners and as human beings, and that's what we really need to be thinking about so while the idea of grades and their use in schools has been around for a very long time, the conditions under which our kids are learning right now have shifted pretty dramatically, both with covid Certainly, but in this New, you know, new for the last decade or more of the role of technology in the classroom, the intensified pressure to get into elite institutions after after secondary after secondary school. So that has shifted the game in terms of the impact that grades have on students, I think.
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And I think I also saw that you mentioned that we now have grade portals, so that you have an almost instant ability to look at what the grades are, and for parents to, if they're minded to, you know, put pressure on their kids as a result of whatever this. Yes, I
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think this is one of the worst inventions that we've seen over the last few years in in education, it certainly gives people a lot of information about what's happening. And you know, we always like to emphasize the role of communication between teachers and parents. That's important, but those grading portals operate as some kind of academic version of Big Brother, where everyone can see what is happening with a student at all times. And we would be really deluding ourselves to think that students don't feel that pressure because everyone can see what's happening.
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And I. I noted that you said that they can then become strategic learners, so they only focus on the things that they need to get the grade rather than on any
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that is what grades do. That is their fundamental function as extrinsic motivators, that whenever we set up a system where the emphasis is on the prize or the reward, or in this case, grades, students have the incentive to do what they need to do to get the good grade, regardless of the learning that happens along the way. And that is the reality for many of our classrooms, that is, those are the conditions that they have established. And that's not what we want in education. I certainly don't want it from my daughter or my students, but that is what we have wrought.
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And it's interesting because you've you also mentioned that grades, they serve as a gatekeeper anyway, you know, you talked about how things have really ratcheted up, and there's so much pressure now to try and get into, you know, elite colleges, or just any colleges, and they're sort of like a currency one, one thing you also talked about was that feedback. Can you talk about the difference between, you know, grades as feedback and whether fee because, because they didn't really tell you, which do they if you get a grade like a, my friend used to get a B, and her mother would say, Well, why didn't you get an A? And she'd say, I don't know. That's exactly
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right. So sure you know, when you see an A in history, what does that really tell you? I mean, a student can say, Yes, I got an A in history, but they can't really necessarily talk about what they know and can do in in terms of history. So the difference between grades and feedback is simply that feedback is designed to coach learners along the way, so to allow them to progress, to set goals and to meet goals, and feedback is primarily something that we give orally or in writing on assignments.
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Proponents of grades will argue that grades are a kind of feedback, but because of a grades role in evaluation and judgment and gatekeeping, as you're saying, students do not receive grades as feedback. They receive grades as doors closing and as judgment on them. And so we have, if we're really interested in learning, we have to put more of an emphasis on giving students feedback along the way. If you think of something you know, all your listeners out there, think of something that you're really good at and how you became really good at that thing, it is almost always because you tried something out, made a mistake, and someone more knowledgeable gave you feedback, and then you tried again. It is never usually because you got a B minus on whatever you were working on. It is. It was almost always because of feedback.
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And you said that it basically that often the feedback is used to justify the grade rather, yes,
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that is something that, as a teacher, frustrated me the most about grades. First of all, to making, you know, making the kind of judgment is this a b plus or an A minus, and then the feedback necessarily having to justify why it was a b plus or an A minus rather than what I was really interested in, which is helping the students to do better on the next assignment, give coaching them through the feedback. So that is, I mean,
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you could, well, you could say that for teachers, it's it's much easier just to give a grade, because that's going to ratchet up the amount of work they have to do.
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They have to give feedback on every single
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page. That is true.
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However, most teachers also give feedback in addition to the grade, and the research that we have shows that students, when they receive both a grade and feedback, look only at the grade and disregard the feedback, because this Yes, because the spotlight is entirely on the letter or number at the at the top of the page.
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And I suppose when it comes to the teachers, of course, I would say to our listeners, really assume the teacher wants the best for your child. Just go in there thinking they really they're doing this job because they want these kids to learn that. Said, all teachers come with their own biases and prejudices and beliefs about people, and those beliefs will build up. And I know as a really, as a student who came from a family who didn't really care about my education, and I there was a massive leap between where I started and where I finished as a result of growing and, you know, I was lucky enough to I did tests, and it was, you know, I had evidence that I had reached a certain standard, whereas some of the teachers would have just gone, yeah, she's that difficult child, and might not have given me the leeway needed. But I don't know to what extent that might happen in classroom sessions. Well, I
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think you nailed it right away, that all teachers are different, and all of them are bringing in their own experiences with education, their training that they received as undergraduates in education, and their experiences in the classroom. And the reality is, is that we don't talk a lot about the issues that we're talking about right now in teacher training. Well, a lot of it is lesson design, assignment design, you know, making sure people know the appropriate amount of content for the grade level that they're teaching in a primary or secondary, and we talk a lot less about the real human dynamic dimensions of learning and how to cultivate classrooms full of compassion and empathy and mindful of each student's growth. And so for me as someone who studies learning and education, the idea that learning is a clear cut kind of process is completely antithetical to what we really know about that process. It is complex and it and a student's learning develops at different rates depending on what the courses, etc, right? And so we what we need to do as we help them progress is to create evaluation systems that honor the fact that every individual's process of learning is going to happen at a different rate, and our current system of grades absolutely do not do that. They put a stamp at a particular time on how far someone has advanced, when that student might very well have learned the concepts by the end of the term, rather than at that moment in the term,
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right? And that's those Tetris blocks that you just can't Yeah, yes. And where do you sit in terms of exams? Well, how do you think it because, of course, this whole system is leading into an exam situation. What? What are your thoughts about exams? I
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think exams can be useful if they are used appropriately. Unfortunately, most of the emphasis on exams is designing them to be very high stakes. So a lot is riding on the particular exam. There are very few of them, and so each carries so much weight with them. And so the best you know, we have a lot of literature from psychology about the testing effect in that testing done frequently and with low stakes can help people remember and learn information more effectively. High Stakes, major exams do the opposite. They ratchet up the pressure and they lower that, they lower the bar for learning in the sense, right? And so I think the idea of testing can be a benefit to learning, but high stakes exams are not that's
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that's absolutely fascinating. And I get, I've got my daughters are in two different schools, and one gets tested regularly, and the other one not and the one who isn't tested regularly complains and says, yes, she doesn't get much practice at it.
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And when it comes around, it feels really stressful, and she wished that she was testing.
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The other problem with exams is that teachers often assume that because a student demonstrates that they've learned something on homework or in class, that they are automatically going to do well on the exam, when what we know about doing well on exams is that a student needs practice on the specific kinds of questions they might see on the exam to be able to do a good job on it,
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which is why we have a problem. I mean, in the UK, we have, Gee, I don't know what it's like. And in the US, I think it's slightly different.
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We have exams at 16. They're high stake exams. You can be doing 1112, exams. Some do eight. You know, it varies, but, yeah, once a lot of work is put into practicing how to do the exams, rather than necessarily, you know, am I learning something and enjoying my
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learning disconnected, which
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is a big problem, makes sense? And what about, you know, you're talking about the problem with grades.
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Have we seen scenarios where it works without grades? Because presumably it's all we it's lovely talking about things where you say, there's a problem here, but how do you where we seen that there? This can work without grades.
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So I think the major task before us at this moment, because we can't wave a magic wand and get rid of grades, is to reorient a student's experience with grades. And so there are many schools that are an individual teachers as well.
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That are attempting to do this by using different kinds of grading models. So rather than the high stakes traditional grades that we're talking about, there are others who set a variety of standards to meet a lot across the course of the term, and then the grade is determined based on how many standards you meet, rather than what did you get on the exam? So that's a pretty simple way to sort of reorient a student's experience. It lowers the pressure, allows them to it again. It honors the fact that learning happens at different rates for different students. So there are many kinds of experiments internationally with this kind, these kinds of grading approaches there are, on the other hand, there are some institutions, both post secondary and earlier, that also do not have grades. And so we have several colleges in the United States that are gradeless and yes and yes. The one I feature in the book is Evergreen State College in Washington.
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They give only narrative feedback, and their transcripts for those students are made up only of selections from that feedback that faculty have given, and those students get into all of the same graduate schools and medical schools that play other institutions send their students. So it can happen. It's just that, I think, making the jump from where we are now to every everyone gets rid of grades, it's too much of a gap to bridge, and so we need to take a series of carefully designed steps to help students really change their relationship to grades.
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Fascinating.
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It's interesting because I've mentioned this before. You mentioned Angela Duckworth study. She's the lady who created the talked about grit in the TED talk, and she said that she decided that she would implement a system in her own what she was teaching, which wouldn't have grades. And her supervisor said, That's a terrible idea. She said, No, no, I want to encourage intrinsic learning. And she did it, and she said it was a disaster, because the people in the other subjects weren't doing that. So all that happened was all her students just didn't they didn't hand in their essays, they didn't turn up some classes.
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They just focus on the ones where the grades were pointing.
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So yes, it kind of we have to if we're going to do it, an entire institution needs to do it together. Otherwise you what you do is you just, literally, you tick the back, yes, according to where the grades are right.
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So because you can't change systems, students will rightly and strategically prioritize where they're getting more pressure. So that is true.
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I think there are ways to set up guardrails for the if you're an individual who wants to try this, there are ways to set up guardrails to kind of acknowledge the reality of that prioritization, but also to help them develop those skills that they need, that they can carry with them from your alternatively graded class into those other courses as well. So an area of interest for me, how do we help students recognize those skills that they're developing?
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You say, as an individual? I mean, are we talking about being a parent, doing that? Are we talking about being at
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that moment? I was talking about being a teacher, trying out those models. But I think it's also true for parents who cannot change the system, but who can acknowledge the realities and the impact of what grades are doing.
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Interesting. So let's talk about what we parents can do. And I noticed that you said that we've gone from a system where early adolescence was kind of an important developmental stage, and then now we kind of treat our children like young adults simultaneously, acting as if they're small children in need of perpetual oversight. I think that's a matter. End of it. Yes.
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Quote, so, so what you're doing is grasping the nettle of what's been going on. And you also refer to gardeners and carpenters and and gardeners being the people, the parents who kind of make the guard, the conditions good for their plants to grow, whereas the carpenters, I think they're building a child. Can you talk to us about how that relates to the whole thing you're talking about in terms of grades and how, how us is how we as parents can support our kids? Yes,
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definitely. So the trap that grades set for parents is that we want the very best for our children, and we want them to develop interests and to to learn for its own sake and to develop love for you know, and.
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The topics that really for which they have a passion. But we also know that grades are, as you mentioned earlier, a kind of currency that will open or close doors to colleges, to careers, et cetera along the way. And so that means that we have this tension where we're both trying to do what's best for students, our children, and also really recognizing those realities so but the real danger of that is that we don't know what the future holds for them. We could be that putting pressure on kids to get good grades without knowing what they are actually going to go through in the future only has the effect of undermining our relationship with them, and so a lot of the strategies that I provide in those chapters are really designed to focus less on grades and that imagined future and really focusing on the kids we have before us in front of us, how can we communicate to them that our love and our support for them is in no way conditional on the grades that they're getting for the class in the classroom. How can we help them develop their natural curiosity and love for learning?
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And so, you know, some of the suggestions I give there, all students, or all students are curious. All kids are curious.
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Naturally, every one of us who has kids knows that they ask a lot of different questions about a lot of different things. They have very specific interests in particular things. And to the degree that we can help help them build those interests and really encourage those interests, whatever they are at that time, we create, in effect, a kind of suit of armor for them as they go into leave our houses and go into the classroom, because if we help them develop interest and curiosity what what that means is they have the building blocks over Time to understand that whatever games are happening with grades in the classroom, learning means something more inherently for them, and they can take that with them throughout their lives. So yeah,
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I love that, yes. And so you so. So on the one hand, we talk about this stuff all the time on our podcast, the connection, the importance of that connection, and also just that curiosity, and practicing that at home and being curious ourselves, rather than simply judging or right. I there was a quote in your book I loved, which was Jessica Leahy, the author of gifts of failure, who wrote, applying pressure is the in the form of control is the single most damaging thing parents and teachers can do to their children's learning. Yes, and when we when we say pressure, what do you think would be that type of pressure?
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That would be
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the particular pressure that I'm really focused on in this book is The intense pressure to perform and succeed at all costs in the classroom that you have to get straight A's or you're never going to get into the right college. That's so it's the particular pressure that we put on our kids to succeed in the classroom. And again, most kids feel that internally. Anyway. They know what's going on. That they know what's happening with their friends, and so by us doing that, we are only adding to that intense pressure that they are already feeling, and what they need most from us is not adding to their pressure, but being able to release that pressure to make the home the place where they can come to feel safe, to feel supported, to feel loved, regardless of what is happening.
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Academically,
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I love that.
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Oh, I love that. And actually, just in addition to that, you said, leaders of college career centers are now reporting that employers often care less about the GPA than they do about skills like problem solving.
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Yes,
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and I wish that I could send this message in the mail to every parent in the world, but yes, it is true that what we are seeing from our Career Centers and from, you know, other researchers in this area, employers care much more about whether you can communicate effectively, whether you can think critically and whether you can work productively with others than they do about your GPA. And that may not have always been the case, but it is certainly the case now, because what they're recognizing, especially in a. In fields where you really don't know what's coming down the pike five or 10 years from now, like who could have predicted AI would have been such a major uh issue right now. What they're what they're banking on, is that they are going to be able to teach people who they hire the skills that they need to succeed in the field as those new developments come up, as long as who they are hiring are skilled in these other areas, like communication and critical thinking. So GPA has fallen down the list of
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so. GPA, for people who may be wondering, that's three point average, yeah, and I read a book. I forget who it was written by, but it was talking about the age of acceleration. It was called, thank you for being late. And he was talking about how our, you know, in workplaces now, actually, what they're looking for is people who can continue to learn, continue to adapt, who have an intrinsic motivation to to sort of learn new things, because we're going to have to constantly adapt that, you know, Gone are those careers where you just learn your skills and then you just carry on, you just practice the skills. For those that's absolutely
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right. And I think what they're recognizing is that our system of grades is really precluding people from coming into professions with that love of learning and the ability to continue learning over the course of their careers.
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One thing I wanted to pick out was, you I'd like to talk about, you know, some of the real negative sides of the sort of stress we're talking about. Because everybody's talking about a mental health crisis and looking around me, Jonathan Haidt is talking about social media as one of the core factors. I saw that you picked out Lisa demore opening the chapter, one of the chapters in her book The day, and she I think it's called under pressure the book, and the subheading said, school is supposed to be stressful. And you said, I fundamentally disagree with that. Can you explain, you know, because there are there different types of stress, aren't there? There's eustress. And there's eustress and distress. And what do you mean by why do you disagree with I well, I
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sort of disagree with the framing. I know what, I know what she's she's trying to do by saying it's supposed to be stressful. So we need to help people navigate stress. And I don't disagree with that. But what I do disagree with is the school is supposed to be stressful. I don't think that school is supposed to be stressful. I think that it often is stressful, but it doesn't have to be. And if we look at or if we prioritize education and learning rather than sorting, ranking and certifying. Then we we get to places we craft learning environments where school is not stressful, it is joyful and it is about learning, and it is dynamic and creative and fun and playful, and yes, there, there is a need to help, especially young people, learn how to manage stress. But that does not mean that we have to create systems that are, by their nature, stressful. Stress comes no matter what. Let's create schools that prioritize all the other great things about learning and then help students manage that along the way.
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I love that.
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And we there's, there's a lot of talk here, because we've got a lot of people missing school as well through things like, you know, anxiety and not wanting to turn turn up to school because it feels like a hostile environment. And I saw that Pew Research Center had a survey of children aged 13 to 17, and 96% of those who responded said that anxiety and depression are either a major or minor problem among their peers, which is pretty and I think it was saying that it was this. It was the most the biggest stressor was grades, rather than how they Yes,
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absolutely. So we have a lot of work coming out now showing how grades and academic stress are contributing to this mental health crisis.
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That particular survey was looking at students can self reported issues with mental health, and then the reasons for it, and grades were at the top of the list. We have other other surveys and reports coming out now that that really show the increase in percentage from the lat over the last decade of these major mental health challenges that students are wrestling with, and when asked, when they're asked to reflect on that grades comes up in every single report. Now it's not always the top, but it is near the top in everything that I've seen. And I think that you know that is a wake up call if we know that that is happening and we don't have these conversations, if we continue to assume. That grades just have to be the way they are because they're at the heart of education, then we really are doing our children a disservice, and we're kind of complicit in that, if we refuse to kind of really look at the problem,
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yes, and it's not what you've said is you said the last 10 years. So it's not just covid, because we know that covid has put has ramped things up, but that's not where it started. One of the other, sorry, I was
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just gonna say it's been going on for a long time.
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Covid exacerbated it, but it's been happening for a while.
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One of the other things that you said parents can do is so we've talked about connection and, you know, not focusing just on the grades. I think what I loved is one of your points about core assets, focusing on your your kids strengths, and that's one thing we as parents can be very good at if we connect with our kids. So can you talk more about how do we what do you mean by core assets? Or
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that comes from a book called thrivers by Michelle Borba. And what it means is to, rather than focus on all the time, on areas that that our kids need to continue working on flipping the script and focusing instead on what are they good at, and how can we? How can we, number one, let them know that we understand that those are their strengths? Because one of the points she makes in that book is that kids often feel that no one really understands what they are good at, and for parents to recognize that it really boosts their confidence dramatically. So that's the first thing. The second thing though, is once we identify those core strengths and communicate that with our kids, is to help or to provide opportunities for them to build on those strengths, put them in situations where they can utilize those strengths or help them engage in activities and after school opportunities where they can cultivate those strengths. And the more you communicate from this strength based framework to student or to children and to really help them, help them develop them, the more they are better able to go into stressful classroom environments where grades, you know, loom large, and to say, I this is who I am. I have these strengths. Let me draw on these strengths to do the best I can.
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And if the best I can is less than an A, I still know who I am and what I'm good at. Yes, exactly because I've been building I've been these strengths have been highlighted for me,
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yes, and you also talk about advocating in school. So I have had an entire episode where we talked about how when they become when they go to secondary school, it's very tempting to kind of pull back a bit because they don't, you know, often you just drop them at the gate, and then you go in when there's a parents evening, which is very infrequent, and pretty much they get on with it. And you can provide them with homework setups and things, or, you know, check their grades. But there's this, talking to the teachers, communicating with school, advocating. So, you know, I think you also mentioned campaigning against grade portals and talking to teachers about the grading system. How can you know parents have either listened to this podcast or they've actually decided to buy your book? What are the things they could be they can be doing with schools to show flag up to schools. Look, we're on this.
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We're interested in this, and we'd like a change in in the temperature.
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So one thing that you said just a few minutes ago, I think is the place to start.
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And so a key is both teachers and parents approaching this, assuming best intentions, so that you know parents are assuming it of teachers, and teachers assuming it of parents as well, so that we are allies working together for the good of our children's education. So beyond that, I think in terms of grades specifically, really asking questions about the particular grading models at the School of the way grades are given, and in a genuinely curious way, we just want to know about how your philosophy about grades and how you give grades in your classes. So just really kind of starting the ball rolling there. But I do think that there is a place for research, informed advocacy about major issues like grading portals, or like the way class rank is determined, things like that, where the messaging of the schools is part of the problem and so coming together.
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Utilizing some of the research, either in this episode or in other things that that they might read, to approach a particular problem. So identify the problem, rather than the emotion behind it. Right? My, you know, my, my child is suffering. I need to talk to you, and I'm approaching it like a parent who is upset. So rather than that, even though that may be true, identifying the clear cut specific problem and bringing information to that advocacy, I think that that is a way to open the door so that the teachers and the administrators don't feel like they're back on their heels in the defensive position, but they can, they can respond in an academic, intellectual way about the particular issue, and then the conversation can move forward from there. I think that in combination with organizing, that a kind of community organizing framework for parents around particular academic issues is also a very useful approach for this. I think so. A lot of parents assume that they have no power whatsoever in these conversations about academics, about other things, like school dances and things that you know about fundraising, things like that. I think parents feel like they have some agency, but it's very often the case that parents feel like they do not have agency about academic issues and so identifying people within the community of parents who might be able to to use social capital or organizing principles to bring groups together about those issues is equally as beneficial in terms of organizing and advocating as for any other type of issue that might come up in schools. It's just not done very often so schools don't recognize that kind of organizing as as often happening, but it can be very effective.
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And just finally, what would you say to somebody who I mean I I came under huge pressure to get for myself, to get good grades for my A levels, because I wanted to go to university. Once I worked out what university was, I came under huge pressure, pressure at the end of my university degree to get really because it was all nine exams, 100% I had to work so hard. But I learned a huge amount in that process, that kind of, it's like, you know, striking on what would you say to someone who said, Yes, you can't, you can't achieve great things. You can't make those massive leaves if you don't put them under this huge pressure.
00:37:49.539 --> 00:37:56.500
We don't have these grades. We don't have this fear that you're going to to not do very well.
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Because why would they? Why would they do their work?
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So there's a lot there. One is the grades as motivating a factor, right? And again, grades can be useful for things that require compliance.
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So getting people to turn things in on time, or getting them to attend class, grades work for that, but a grade will never be able to create conditions where someone will learn just because they are forced to be in the classroom. That takes intrinsic motivation. And so that's something that that we really have to be cautious of. But so the first part of this will they go on to do great things. I really think that part of our job as a parent is to help redefine what great things means. So what we want is for our children to find the best future for them, not some kind of nebulous, predetermined model of success that might be out there, and the best careers for our individual kids may not, may not, in fact, often does not require going to the most elite institutions or or getting, You know, the perfect scores on exams you could and then often, it is often the case that elite institutions do not always provide the same level of support and mentoring that other institutions do. And so you can be a great engineer, cook, teacher, all these things without going to the most elite institutions. So if we dial back from the cookie cutter and say, What does my child want and what would make them most fulfilled, and focus on that, we can find the right institutions for that match. And it does not require perfect grades, good grades, sure. So. But not perfect grades. And I think that's a really important distinction.
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Yeah, I love that. And I think, I think our obsession with academia, where so many people just don't suit it, and I've had this battle with one of my children, where she has the option of doing is the same name for the course, but they're different. Ones, much more practical, one's much more theoretical, and she's feeling pushed in the theoretical direction, even though she's really fantastic at the practical side of it, because she wants to go to a prestigious university. And you just go, Oh, this is such a waste of humanity. You know, human resources, when they feel funneled in one direction just to suit some social idea of what he you know, success
00:40:40.780 --> 00:40:57.820
exactly right? So the goal can't be just to go the to the prestigious institution, because it's the prestigious institution, right? The goal has to be finding a place that's the right fit for what you want to do. And I think that that is really the moral of the story.
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That's
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a brilliant way to end. Joshua, thank you so much for being with us today.
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It's such a vital topic, and I know our entire community feels really strongly about it. I'll put your details in the link for the book. If people want to find you online, whereby,
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on all social media platforms, LinkedIn or X, formally, Twitter, all of it, they can even send an email to me. I This is an important conversation. I'm grateful to Rachel for having me on. Well,
00:41:30.619 --> 00:41:48.940
that's it for now. If you found this interesting, why not pass it on to someone else who might benefit you can hear any of my other interviews and episodes at www teenagersuntangled com. Feel free to email me at teenagers untangled@gmail.com and you can even leave room. That's it for now. Have A great week. Bye, bye. You.
